Unexpected Expenditure

[Parahandy]

I arrived back at the Boat yesterday evening with the Girlfriend after a Day in London , I went to turn the Engine on for a Shower and nothing , the panel was lighting up but absolutely no signs of life from the Engine , I couldn't believe it . I am a " Maintenance Fanatic " and I had no previous warning of anything amiss , I finally settled on the Starter Battery being the likely culprit and although I had a Generator Aboard I had no Battery Charger and thus no way of starting the engine , it would clearly have to wait until the Morning .

By 8am I had it stripped out and decided to take it to Bedford Battery for testing and if necessary renewal . Well £100 later I was the owner of a new Yuasa Battery and thankfully I am back up and running .

The old Starter Battery which I inherited from a Previous Owner had 2011 written on it in Marker Pen so almost 8 years old , the funny thing is that in all my years afloat I cant ever remember having renewed a Starter Battery before though I think I must have , its the old story I guess , even when your looking after things you can still be caught out by the unexpected failure .

[dor]

I've just replaced my 12 year old starter battery. Probably my fault for not keeping it topped up regularly.  To start the engine I just jumped across from the service batteries.

[ditchcrawler]

9 minutes ago, Parahandy said:

I arrived back at the Boat yesterday evening with the Girlfriend after a Day in London , I went to turn the Engine on for a Shower and nothing , the panel was lighting up but absolutely no signs of life from the Engine , I couldn't believe it . I am a " Maintenance Fanatic " and I had no previous warning of anything amiss , I finally settled on the Starter Battery being the likely culprit and although I had a Generator Aboard I had no Battery Charger and thus no way of starting the engine , it would clearly have to wait until the Morning .

By 8am I had it stripped out and decided to take it to Bedford Battery for testing and if necessary renewal . Well £100 later I was the owner of a new Yuasa Battery and thankfully I am back up and running .

The old Starter Battery which I inherited from a Previous Owner had 2011 written on it in Marker Pen so almost 8 years old , the funny thing is that in all my years afloat I cant ever remember having renewed a Starter Battery before though I think I must have , its the old story I guess , even when your looking after things you can still be caught out by the unexpected failure .

No Jump leads onboard?

 

[MtB]

18 minutes ago, Parahandy said:

the panel was lighting up but absolutely no signs of life from the Engine

 

Sadly this was probably a poor battery connection, rectified when you removed the battery and fitted a new one. Cleaning the existing battery terminals would probably have fixed it too.

 

The battery shop would say you need a new one, wouldn't they? Quelle surprise!

[BruceinSanity]

This thread title would make an ideal name for a boat 

[rusty69]

8 hours ago, Parahandy said:

I went to turn the Engine on for a Shower and nothing ,

I see your mistake. 

 

Try turning the shower on instead ! 

[Parahandy]

8 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Sadly this was probably a poor battery connection, rectified when you removed the battery and fitted a new one. Cleaning the existing battery terminals would probably have fixed it too.

 

The battery shop would say you need a new one, wouldn't they? Quelle surprise!

There is always a degree of doubt Mike when anyone with a vested interest tests anything . I can only say that I dropped a set of leads across both Terminals and it appeared quite dead , this along with the 2011 date on the side of the Battery made me reach for my Wallet . My Terminals are all in excellent condition though I take your point about the Battery Posts one of which appeared slightly on a cant .

[Parahandy]

9 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

No Jump leads onboard?

 

I did have a set onboard Brian , but last year I had some Metal Grills made by a Blacksmith who Trades from a Canal Boat , one of these sit about Four Inches above my Battery Bank and given the lateness of the Hour I wasn't going to start removing them and my Toolbox etc which sits upon them . I have recently renewed the Bank of Leisure Batteries and I am a bit overly precious about them .

I realise I invite ridicule by saying that . On another point I had an excellent deal from Europarts on Four Exide Leisure Batteries , they comfortably beat Tayno the online supplier .

[MtB]

47 minutes ago, Parahandy said:

There is always a degree of doubt Mike when anyone with a vested interest tests anything . I can only say that I dropped a set of leads across both Terminals and it appeared quite dead , this along with the 2011 date on the side of the Battery made me reach for my Wallet . My Terminals are all in excellent condition though I take your point about the Battery Posts one of which appeared slightly on a cant .

 

Ah now that is odd. Please don't think I'm trying to pick holes in your decision to replace an old and tired battery, but I'm always keen to properly understand a battery problem, and yours doesn't really make sense yet, on the info so far. 

 

The bit puzzling me is how the dead battery was able to light up the control panel lights you mention in your OP. Perhaps the lights went out when you turned the key further to the position to turn the engine over. 

 

Apologies if this drags your thread somewhat off topic, just trying to understand.

 

[roland elsdon]

You have to start the engine for a shower?

solar bag

bucket

12  v  camping shower pump and rose.  Put pump in bucket

 Plug in cigar socket

sun provides hot water and power

sounds of silence

i can hear the church bells as I finish my holy shower.

tomorrow when I boat I'll get the hot water off the immersion

[cuthound]

One possibility for the battery post being on a cant,  the battery being able to light ignition lights, but not start the engine is group bars corrosion. It is however extremely rareand usually found on sealed batteries.

 

Corrosion occurs between the pure lead group bars  (to which the post is welded) and the lead/calcium alloyed plates. The plates either drop off the group bars,  for the joints become high resistance.

 

It was pretty common in the early 80's when sealed batteries first came out, but most manufacturers solved the issues by the mid 80's.

[Horace42]

3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

The bit puzzling me is how the dead battery was able to light up the control panel lights you mention in your OP. Perhaps the lights went out when you turned the key further to the position to turn the engine over. 

 

Apologies if this drags your thread somewhat off topic, just trying to understand.

 

A familiar story, but there is usually an intermediary stage in the start process, that could explain the problem.

On my boat, from cold, I need to hold the ignition switch in the diesel 'pre-heat' position for about 10 seconds in order for the engine to burst into life in the first couple of revs. Even then, going back to 'off' for a couple of seconds to allow the battery to recover before switching straight to 'on' without pausing in pre-heat. 

Anything less than 10 seconds means the starter then struggles. I can see from the voltmeter, the volts drop away rapidly, even with a good battery, and worse when the battery is not fully charged. 

There are usually enough volts to operate the panel lights, except they 'dim' in the preheat stage that drains the battery of whatever little power it had - then on 'start' nothing ! - other than a resounding 'click' from the start solenoid.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Horace42
typo

[Parahandy]

2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Ah now that is odd. Please don't think I'm trying to pick holes in your decision to replace an old and tired battery, but I'm always keen to properly understand a battery problem, and yours doesn't really make sense yet, on the info so far. 

 

The bit puzzling me is how the dead battery was able to light up the control panel lights you mention in your OP. Perhaps the lights went out when you turned the key further to the position to turn the engine over. 

 

Apologies if this drags your thread somewhat off topic, just trying to understand.

 

Sorry Mike , other than the fact I turned the ignition " On " the night before and owing to failing light disconnected and " tested " the Battery next day there is little more I can offer . I did note however that when I turned the key to its final position in my attempt to start the engine the Panel Lights were almost fading away to nothing .

[Nightwatch]

I thought my starter battery was on it's way to the battery home in the sky, as starting the engine was getting more and more tired. Unlike the OP my problem was even more unexpected expenditure, a replacement alternator. Gloom. 

 

Glad you got sorted.

[Horace42]

41 minutes ago, Parahandy said:

Sorry Mike , other than the fact I turned the ignition " On " the night before and owing to failing light disconnected and " tested " the Battery next day there is little more I can offer . I did note however that when I turned the key to its final position in my attempt to start the engine the Panel Lights were almost fading away to nothing .

That is a classic description of a problem caused by volts-drop. Either due to current in the circuit, or resistance of the wiring, or bad connectors, or not being enough to start with - ie,' flat' battery - that might be due to poor charging.

For my money it was bad connections at the battery lugs - and could still be - unless you thoroughly cleaned them when fitting the new battery.

Don't you have a voltmeter on your panel ??

[Nightwatch]

But this is all after the event. Horse,doors and bolted springs to mind.

[Parahandy]

45 minutes ago, Horace42 said:

That is a classic description of a problem caused by volts-drop. Either due to current in the circuit, or resistance of the wiring, or bad connectors, or not being enough to start with - ie,' flat' battery - that might be due to poor charging.

For my money it was bad connections at the battery lugs - and could still be - unless you thoroughly cleaned them when fitting the new battery.

Don't you have a voltmeter on your panel ??

I dont have a Voltmetre but I shall take a further look at the Terminals

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Parahandy said:

Sorry Mike , other than the fact I turned the ignition " On " the night before and owing to failing light disconnected and " tested " the Battery next day there is little more I can offer . I did note however that when I turned the key to its final position in my attempt to start the engine the Panel Lights were almost fading away to nothing .

Just out of curiosity, why do you put a space both before and after all your punctuation?

Edited May 20, 2018 by Guest

[MtB]

2 hours ago, Parahandy said:

Sorry Mike , other than the fact I turned the ignition " On " the night before and owing to failing light disconnected and " tested " the Battery next day there is little more I can offer . I did note however that when I turned the key to its final position in my attempt to start the engine the Panel Lights were almost fading away to nothing .

 

Thanks for the detail. To me this sounds like a flat battery, i.e. battery not getting charged properly. Could have been a poor connection but more likely low charging voltage. Watch out for the problem returning in a month or two. If problem returns, your charging source is probably faulty. Loose drive belt or failing alternator is favourite. Would be worth buying a multimeter so you can check the charging voltage on the battery terminals. Should be 14.4v. If it is 12.something you still have a problem. 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 hours ago, Parahandy said:

Sorry Mike , other than the fact I turned the ignition " On " the night before and owing to failing light disconnected and " tested " the Battery next day there is little more I can offer . I did note however that when I turned the key to its final position in my attempt to start the engine the Panel Lights were almost fading away to nothing .

Does that mean you switched on the ignition and left it switched on all night, then when you tested the battery the next day it was flat ?

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Does that mean you switched on the ignition and left it switched on all night, then when you tested the battery the next day it was flat ?

 

Which leads on to another point, there is no way I can think of to 'test' a battery in less than about a day. First, it has to be fully charged to 100% SoC which takes about 8 hours, sometimes as much as 12. Then the specific gravity of the acid in each cell can be measured to check the degree of sulphation. If they are notably different form each other or all significantly less than about 1.270 then the battery is sulphated and can be declared dead, or at best in need of a damned good equalising.

 

I suspect the test they did in the battery shop was nothing more than a 'drop test' with that big wavy current drain thing with big handles and propngs, which does little more than declare a battery dead if it is near flat. 

 

Granted though, if five cells boil furiously during charging and one doesn't, it can be immediately declared a shorted cell = dead battery. This could have been the problem with the OP's batt.

 

 

Edited May 20, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman
technical error!

[Horace42]

50 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Which leads on to another point, there is no way I can think of to 'test' a battery in less than about a day. First, it has to be fully charged to 100% SoC which takes about 8 hours, sometimes as much as 12. Then the specific gravity of the acid in each cell can be measured to check the degree of sulphation. If they are notably different form each other or all significantly less than about 1.270 then the battery is sulphated and can be declared dead, or at best in need of a damned good equalising.

 

I suspect the test they did in the battery shop was nothing more than a 'drop test' with that big wavy current drain thing with big handles and propngs, which does little more than declare a battery dead if it is near flat. 

 

Granted though, if five cells boil furiously during charging and one doesn't, it can be immediately declared a shorted cell = dead battery. This could have been the problem with the OP's batt.

 

 

Mike, just a 'technical' point, I am sure I know what you mean when you say 'boil' furiously' - but for the novice it might be helpful to explain that  'boiling' comes from 'bubbles' (of hydrogen) due to gassing in normal charging - which is a good sign - and not steam from heat due to excessive current and overcharging.   Clearly a bad sign.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Horace42
tail end note added.

[cuthound]

24 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Which leads on to another point, there is no way I can think of to 'test' a battery in less than about a day. First, it has to be fully charged to 100% SoC which takes about 8 hours, sometimes as much as 12. Then the specific gravity of the acid in each cell can be measured to check the degree of sulphation. If they are notably different form each other or all significantly less than about 1.270 then the battery is sulphated and can be declared dead, or at best in need of a damned good equalising.

 

Absolutely correct.

 

At the dawn of my career with BT each flooded lead acid battery was given a "conditioning cycle" every 2 years. 

 

First the battery was fully charged and cell voltages & sg's taken (temperature corrected). 

 

Then it was discharged at the 10 hour rate, with load current checked and adjusted every 15 minutes as well as voltages  & sg's taken. 

 

When the first cell reached 1.85 volts, a cadmium electrode was used. Cadmium is electro-negative to the negative plate, so charge distributuon on both plates can be assessed. Finally when the first cell reached 1.75 volts the discharge test was terminated and the battery immediately put on recharge and the capacity calculated. 

 

Including fully recharging, the process used to take around 30 hours and generated me and a colleague loads of overtime and a day off in lieu. A 30 hour straight shift wouldnt be allowed these days.

 

Batteries typically lasted 25 years, and were scrapped when capacity dropped to 80% of badged capacity.

 

From 1980 flooded lead acids were replaced with VRSLA's which were permanently on float, never needed topping up and usually lasted 6 years before failing in service. Whole life costs were an order of magnitude less though.

 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Horace42 said:

Mike, just a 'technical' point, I am sure I know what you mean when you say 'boil' furiously' - but for the novice it might be helpful to explain that  'boiling' comes from 'bubbles' (of hydrogen) due to gassing in normal charging - which is a good sign - and not steam from heat due to excessive current and overcharging.   Clearly a bad sign.

 

Yes indeed. Slang battery language for gassing hydrogen bubbles in a lively manner. If one cell is gassing significantly less than the others the chances are high it has an internal short circuit, which means the other five cells are getting too much voltage leading to them gassing excessively. 

[Parahandy]

3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Which leads on to another point, there is no way I can think of to 'test' a battery in less than about a day. First, it has to be fully charged to 100% SoC which takes about 8 hours, sometimes as much as 12. Then the specific gravity of the acid in each cell can be measured to check the degree of sulphation. If they are notably different form each other or all significantly less than about 1.270 then the battery is sulphated and can be declared dead, or at best in need of a damned good equalising.

 

I suspect the test they did in the battery shop was nothing more than a 'drop test' with that big wavy current drain thing with big handles and propngs, which does little more than declare a battery dead if it is near flat. 

 

Granted though, if five cells boil furiously during charging and one doesn't, it can be immediately declared a shorted cell = dead battery. This could have been the problem with the OP's batt.

 

 

Its been absolutely great trawling through everyones contributions , why cant I ever be moored near some of you Blokes in my time of need ? ? I have rechecked all the connections and they are all visually perfect , in addition the New Battery seems to be turning the starter over with more vigour .