Keeping Up Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 Recently re-reading the excellent Fred Doerflinger's 1970 book "Slow boat through England" he describes the junction at Hawkesbury, arriving from Rugby, as follows: "... rather fine cuttings and embankments on the fourteen mile pound from Hillmorton Locks. Near the junction you come into the sprawling outskirts of Coventry and the junction itself is rather dirty and neglected. After Lock No 1, open at both ends, there is a 90 degree turn hard to starboard under a statuesque cast-iron towpath bridge, and once again a sharp 90 degree turn again to starboard - a virtual doubling back on your course - and you are in the Coventry Canal. This is not a canal on which to linger and because of the state of the navigation some hire companies no longer allow holidaymakers to take their craft on it." My puzzlement is at his statement that the lock is open at both ends. Was it ever so or is he getting confused (which would be unusual for him)? Can anyone remember? For it to be so, either the Coventry canal would have had to be a foot deeper (unlikely, the water would have disappeared over the weirs) or the North Oxford would have been a foot shallower than it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Sugg Posted July 15, 2007 Report Share Posted July 15, 2007 Recently re-reading the excellent Fred Doerflinger's 1970 book "Slow boat through England" he describes the junction at Hawkesbury, arriving from Rugby, as follows: "... rather fine cuttings and embankments on the fourteen mile pound from Hillmorton Locks. Near the junction you come into the sprawling outskirts of Coventry and the junction itself is rather dirty and neglected. After Lock No 1, open at both ends, there is a 90 degree turn hard to starboard under a statuesque cast-iron towpath bridge, and once again a sharp 90 degree turn again to starboard - a virtual doubling back on your course - and you are in the Coventry Canal. This is not a canal on which to linger and because of the state of the navigation some hire companies no longer allow holidaymakers to take their craft on it." My puzzlement is at his statement that the lock is open at both ends. Was it ever so or is he getting confused (which would be unusual for him)? Can anyone remember? For it to be so, either the Coventry canal would have had to be a foot deeper (unlikely, the water would have disappeared over the weirs) or the North Oxford would have been a foot shallower than it is now. I'm probably being a bit thick, but when I read that in the book I wondered if there was ever another lock on the other side, but being as the book was written in 1970 I think some people would remember it, and it wouldn't have been lock number one, and it wouldn't have been before the bridge if coming from Hilmorton - I will therefore consider myself thick. But, I think in all likelyhood he was mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartland Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 Even now, There is still an unresolved question about Hawkesbury Lock. For it to be open was possible. Lewis Edwards in 1962 records the stop lock as a difference in depth of 6 inches. The difference was to protect water supplies in the days of independent ownership, but was it needed in 1970? Had a previous boater neglected to close the gates? Had it become BW policy to leave the gate open, and yes this DID become the case at other stops like Worcester Bar and Digbeth on the Warwick & Birmingham. Yet with the Oxford Canal lock, the gates, whenever I have been there- have been kept closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athy Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 But surely the very narrow bit near the Engine House used to be a lock? It is indeed open at both ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartland Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 Yes, The quote was "After Lock No 1, open at both ends, there is a 90 degree turn hard to starboard under a statuesque cast-iron towpath" on this statement it implied Lock 1 of the Oxford Canal had the gates open The other side of the junction by the engine house is the Coventry Canal stop lock, which is open at both ends, but in the time of the Coventry Canal had gates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray T Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Athy said: But surely the very narrow bit near the Engine House used to be a lock? It is indeed open at both ends. I will be there on Wednesday, I'll have a look and post some photo's. Tardebigge in the narrows on the Coventry side, but doesn't show much. Just a thought could the narrows have been used for gauging when the 1777 junction of the Coventry and Oxford canals was a Longford? Edited November 18, 2019 by Ray T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_fincher Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 This may not e a record for re-opening an old thread, but after in excess of 12 yeras itis not a bad attempt! Is the fall of the Oxford stop lock officially recorded anywhere? It never gives the impression of being anything like a foot to me - I would say more like half that amount. (But I could be wrong!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athy Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 (edited) Well HL, it does show that the it is too narrow to have been anything but a lock (it's too long to have been a former bridge, and in any case the bridges in those parts are wider, with the exception of that absolute sod outside Marston Junction). Edited November 18, 2019 by Athy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_fincher Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 Yes, it is beyond doubt a second former stop lock on the Coventry, but I can't recall the details of when it ceased to be used. However Keeping Up's reference is clearly to the one that is still operational on the Oxford, rather than the disused one on the Coventry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartland Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 Although posted before this map shows lock gates on both.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athy Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 4 minutes ago, alan_fincher said: Yes, it is beyond doubt a second former stop lock on the Coventry, but I can't recall the details of when it ceased to be used. However Keeping Up's reference is clearly to the one that is still operational on the Oxford, rather than the disused one on the Coventry. From that angle, Flamingo looks wider. She'll never get through that narrow bit.... It could be the fairly flat roof of the cabin which gives this impression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray T Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 (edited) The building on the right with the red plaque of Alan's photo is the former toll office for those who don't know the area. ETA, found this photo when we went through in 2017 Edited November 18, 2019 by Ray T 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athy Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 ...and more recently, I believe, a sort of police sub-station, though I cannot recall ever having seen a policeman there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray T Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 Just now, Athy said: ...and more recently, I believe, a sort of police sub-station, though I cannot recall ever having seen a policeman there. During the summer months volunteers man it as an information station and to help with the stop lock if necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 7 minutes ago, Athy said: ...and more recently, I believe, a sort of police sub-station, though I cannot recall ever having seen a policeman there. I have, but a few years ago now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuthound Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 9 minutes ago, Athy said: ...and more recently, I believe, a sort of police sub-station, though I cannot recall ever having seen a policeman there. Sounds like they are transforming the Force ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray T Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 From here: http://collections.canalrivertrust.org.uk/bw197.2.35.44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Brightley Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 The photos above that Ray has just posted are Bert Dunkley's from 1963, so at least we know that the stop by the pump house didn't have gates at that date. But I'm fairly certain that I've seen a photo somewhere from the 1950's with gates in place. But also I'm fairly certain that Doerflinger must have confused Hawkesbury with Marston, as the gates there were in place until I think the early 1970's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 13 minutes ago, John Brightley said: But also I'm fairly certain that Doerflinger must have confused Hawkesbury with Marston, as the gates there were in place until I think the early 1970's. There was coal traffic on the Ashby until about 1970. Did BW remove the Marston stop lock gates after that ceased, and drop the Ashby level by 6"? Might explain why the Ashby is now so shallow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Brightley Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 5 minutes ago, David Mack said: There was coal traffic on the Ashby until about 1970. Did BW remove the Marston stop lock gates after that ceased, and drop the Ashby level by 6"? Might explain why the Ashby is now so shallow! This image from http://collections.canalrivertrust.org.uk/bw200.1.2.2 shows that the two canals at Marston were the same level in 1953 and the gates were still in place. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_fincher Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 1 hour ago, John Brightley said: The photos above that Ray has just posted are Bert Dunkley's from 1963, so at least we know that the stop by the pump house didn't have gates at that date. But I'm fairly certain that I've seen a photo somewhere from the 1950's with gates in place. The well known Robert Longden photos from the1950s clearly show there were no gates on the apparent stop lock on the Coventry at that time. I'm becoming less convinced that it ever was a stop lock. There certainly seems to be no evidence of gate recesses even by the 1950s, and I think there is none now. Most former stop locks now without gates, do tend to have the gate recesses surviving, along with evidence of paddle gear locations. Is it possible the narrows were used for gauging, and were not actually a lock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zenataomm Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 14 minutes ago, alan_fincher said: Is it possible the narrows were used for gauging, and were not actually a lock? That's always been my understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_fincher Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 1 minute ago, zenataomm said: That's always been my understanding. Although pictures of gauging at Hawkesbury generally seem to be in the Oxford stop lock. The other one would surely only be necessary for traffic to and from the portion to Coventry, that isn't actually travelling on the Oxford at all. On balance now, though, I think is probably for gauging, and never had gates. I can't immediately think of any surviving former stop locks where evidence of gate recesses and paddles have been removed, (though somebody will now inevitably come up with one!....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie patrick Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 Just for the record, the Hawkesbury Stop Lock is usually quoted as having a fall of 6 inches, and that seems about right. Marston, the Ashby entrance lock is noted as having a fall of a out 1cinch in either direction in Bradshaw 1904. I seem to recall that Marston lock once had giant bolts on the balance beams to stop the gates blowing open on the wind, so small was the head against them I've never heard or read reference to the narrows on the Coventry canal being a lock, and can't see why one would be built there - narrows yes, for gauging or similar purposes, but a water control structure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zenataomm Posted November 18, 2019 Report Share Posted November 18, 2019 Don't forget everyone that Hawkesbury is not the original junction between the two canals. When built the junction was at Longford. What's the chances that boats leaving the basin at Bishop Street and heading for Oxford would have been gauged at Longford. While boats heading up the Coventry would gauge at the pump house? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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