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Replacing leisure batteries


Tony ralph

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Do you have a local battery supplier. They will often beat online prices.

 

We use South Yorkshire Battery Supplies and always get a good deal from them.

 

We got our current set of Bison batteries for half the price they now retail online!

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16 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

Do you have a local battery supplier. They will often beat online prices.

 

We use South Yorkshire Battery Supplies and always get a good deal from them.

 

We got our current set of Bison batteries for half the price they now retail online!

Thank you naughty cal

I'll take a look and see what's around here 

  cheers 

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2 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

It's interesting you say that because after three months ashore fully on charge 24/7 our batteries do seem to suffer from being lazy for a couple of weeks and then after a few cycles run they seem to recover again.

Yep, that’s not uncommon. However, what they won’t be doing is dropping to 10V once they’re off charge. ‘Lazy’ generally means they’ll be reluctant to supply high currents and appear to lose their charge on load quite quickly. As you say, a few cycles is the equivalent of a good strong espresso. :)

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3 hours ago, Tony ralph said:

Thank you Dr bob 

I have been turning off batteries for roundabout a year . So now I know it  doesn't do any good causing extra charging Cycles on batteries .

I'm still not sure what my charging rate on trickle charge should be .

When I came onto the boat 4 years ago I was just a novice and me batteries were knackered on boat they were not sealed lead acid batteries and replaced and with sealed lead acid batteries so not sure if I set charger in right charging voltage think may be iv been undercharging from that day.  

At moment on trickle charge they are 13.4 on Leisure battery

and 13.7 on starter battery

As soon as I start engine they jump up to 

Leisure battery 14.2 starter battery 14.4 

Does that mean I've been under charging my batteries should they be same  charging rate as battery charger

 

 

Hi Dr bob 

What would be the average amp size on leisure batteries I am not using major power overnight just LED lighting fridge and pumps outside in I would use an inverter out all the time

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5 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Yep, that’s not uncommon. However, what they won’t be doing is dropping to 10V once they’re off charge. ‘Lazy’ generally means they’ll be reluctant to supply high currents and appear to lose their charge on load quite quickly. As you say, a few cycles is the equivalent of a good strong espresso. :)

But Tony was saying that they don't become lazy, which is certainly at odds with what we have found with our last few sets of batteries.

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2 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

But Tony was saying that they don't become lazy, which is certainly at odds with what we have found with our last few sets of batteries.

I think Tony B’s comment needs to be taken in the context that it isn’t better for batteries to be discharged nightly. A little bit of laziness is nothing really compared to the life shortening practise of cycling them daily. 

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6 minutes ago, Tony ralph said:

just LED lighting fridge and pumps outside in I would use an inverter out all the time

Does this mean you have the inverter on all of the time ?

Some inverters use a lot of power just in standby mode (as high 50Ah+ per day)

What 230v appliances are you running from the inverter ?

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2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I think Tony B’s comment needs to be taken in the context that it isn’t better for batteries to be discharged nightly. A little bit of laziness is nothing really compared to the life shortening practise of cycling them daily. 

What other context can this be taken in?

 

"Lead acid batteries do not "become lazy", they do not require conditioning, and they certainly do not need to have that sort of charger turned off at night."

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Does this mean you have the inverter on all of the time ?

Some inverters use a lot of power just in standby mode (as high 50Ah+ per day)

What 230v appliances are you running from the inverter ?

Sorry Alan

my inverter is not on all the time I worded it wrong it's just for charging batteries for phones and sometimes watching a bit of TV the TVs 240

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1 minute ago, Tony ralph said:

Sorry Alan

my inverter is not on all the time I worded it wrong it's just for charging batteries for phones and sometimes watching a bit of TV the TVs 240

Just to help maximise your electrics :

 

Taking 12v and inverting it to 230v then reducing it back down to 5v for charging phones is VERY VERY inefficient (lots of power used - wasted) in addition to the power used by the inverter itself - may I suggest that you simply use a car 12v cigarette lighter socket connected to your batteries and then plug in a USB charging lead. That way you are only changing the voltage once.

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4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Just to help maximise your electrics :

 

Taking 12v and inverting it to 230v then reducing it back down to 5v for charging phones is VERY VERY inefficient (lots of power used - wasted) in addition to the power used by the inverter itself - may I suggest that you simply use a car 12v cigarette lighter socket connected to your batteries and then plug in a USB charging lead. That way you are only changing the voltage once.

Good point. We have installed several of these around the boat for charging phones and tablets etc.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-Car-Cigarette-Lighter-Socket-Splitter-Dual-USB-Charger-Plug-Power-Adapter-/282900262678

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Just now, Naughty Cal said:

Good point. We have installed several of these around the boat for charging phones and tablets etc.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-Car-Cigarette-Lighter-Socket-Splitter-Dual-USB-Charger-Plug-Power-Adapter-/282900262678

Thank you Alan

I already have a couple of 12 volt sockets around boat what a great idea

Cheers 

 

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6 hours ago, Tony ralph said:

Thank you Dr bob 

I have been turning off batteries for roundabout a year . So now I know it  doesn't do any good causing extra charging Cycles on batteries .

I'm still not sure what my charging rate on trickle charge should be .

When I came onto the boat 4 years ago I was just a novice and me batteries were knackered on boat they were not sealed lead acid batteries and replaced and with sealed lead acid batteries so not sure if I set charger in right charging voltage think may be iv been undercharging from that day.  

At moment on trickle charge they are 13.4 on Leisure battery

and 13.7 on starter battery

As soon as I start engine they jump up to 

Leisure battery 14.2 starter battery 14.4 

Does that mean I've been under charging my batteries should they be same  charging rate as battery charger

 

 

Surprised no one else jumped in an answered this. The trickle charge of 13.4V is fine ...just what it should be. The 14.2V is also fine for sealed lead acid...maybe the odd 0.2V is needed in winter but I'd be happy with that.

So for the last year you have been charging in the day and using the battery over evening and night. You have not mentioned any battery monitor so assume you havent got one...hence when you have been out and about over the  past 4 years you may not have charged the batteries fully so they started to sulphate. The 'day time' charge of say 8 hours every day should have got them back to fully charged but you are cycling them. Cheap lead acids will typically do 200-300 cycles to 50% DOD so a year of cycling plus  3 years of unknown but also 'unloved' use will mean they are at the end of their life. They are now given the 10.4V. You need to tell us the size of your battery bank in Ahrs ....a typical lesiure battery is 110Ahr. I have 6 of them. We can only guess what DOD you are doing on a cycle.

First thing when you get your new batteries is to understand how to fully charge them...ie monitor the tail current with a battery monitor or an amp meter plus watch the voltage at rest in the morning when not on the charger. That means you need to buy a battery monitor.

Next, when on a land line, leave the charger on all the time and the batteries will stay fully charged. When out and about make sure they are fully charged frequently...I try and get mine fully charged at least every other day. Read the battery primer that Wotever wrote ....linked to in an earlier post...he knows what he is talking about.

To answer your final point. Yes, at some stage you have been undercharging your batteries. Maybe not when in a marina on shore power... but they are now shot so something is not right. When you are out and about, if you dont have solar, we find we need to run the engine 5 or 6 hours a day to get the batteries back to full charge and some people would probably need 8hrs.

Go back and read through the thread and pick out all Wotever's posts. Make sure you have answered his questions fully. He is your Guru here.

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My understanding of lead acid batteries is that they work in two regimes;

a) discharging them down to about 10V is fine, does no damage and they are fully rechargable (i.e. it's a "Secondary cell")

b) discharging them below 10V and at some point the battery is supplying power by means of an irreversible chemical action (i.e. it's working as a "Primary Cell". This damages the battery and will reduce its performance and shorten its life.

 

For sulphated batteries, electronic pulsators have been developed which apply a high frequency (15kHz?) high voltage spikes. I admit to having being wary about these devices, but I bought one in the form of a kit from a company called Courtisetown Marine (no connections with them) and found that it had a very good effect on some old batteries. Batteries fail via a number of processes, of which sulphation is just one. My impression is that a battery which is compromised by sulphation alone, the pulsator devices can achieve a worthwhile degree of restoration.

Edited by Mariner
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Get a NASA BM2 Battery Monitor and charge at 14.4V. Watch most closely the Amps being drawn when charging. They will start high and fall gradually. When they have fallen to about 1.5z of your Battery bank capacity, they are as good as full.

 

Ignore the %age state of charge reading... it will rarely be correct and, if it is, it’s a coincidence.

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17 minutes ago, Mariner said:

My understanding of lead acid batteries is that they work in two regimes;

a) discharging them down to about 10V is fine, does no damage and they are fully rechargable (i.e. it's a "Secondary cell")

Interesting and flys in the face of all I have been taught about FLA batteries.

Could you cite any references so I can read up on it?

 

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23 minutes ago, Mariner said:

My understanding of lead acid batteries is that they work in two regimes;

a) discharging them down to about 10V is fine, does no damage and they are fully rechargable (i.e. it's a "Secondary cell")

b) discharging them below 10V and at some point the battery is supplying power by means of an irreversible chemical action (i.e. it's working as a "Primary Cell". This damages the battery and will reduce its performance and shorten its life.

 

For sulphated batteries, electronic pulsators have been developed which apply a high frequency (15kHz?) high voltage spikes. I admit to having being wary about these devices, but I bought one in the form of a kit from a company called Courtisetown Marine (no connections with them) and found that it had a very good effect on some old batteries. Batteries fail via a number of processes, of which sulphation is just one. My impression is that a battery which is compromised by sulphation alone, the pulsator devices can achieve a worthwhile degree of restoration.

Thank you mariner 

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6 minutes ago, Tony ralph said:

Thank you mariner 

Tony - in my view you have fallen foul of poor advice once, do not do it again. The deeper you discharge the battery the more of its cyclic life you use up so discharging to 10 volts is far from fine if done more than  once or twice.

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32 minutes ago, Mariner said:

My understanding of lead acid batteries is that they work in two regimes;

a) discharging them down to about 10V is fine, does no damage and they are fully rechargable (i.e. it's a "Secondary cell")

That entirely depends on whether or not the battery is a deep cycle battery. Try taking an average leisure battery down to 10V and see how much its capacity has reduced due to shedding. Do the same with a Rolls and it’ll shrug it off. It has nothing to do with beng a ‘secondary’ or ‘primary’ cell and everything to do with the physical construction of the plates. 

 

32 minutes ago, Mariner said:

For sulphated batteries, electronic pulsators have been developed which apply a high frequency (15kHz?) high voltage spikes.

And despite them having been around for many years no peer-reviewed testing has ever shown any effect from them whatsoever. Several anecdotal reviews on this forum has resulted in the tester throwing the desulphator I n the bin however.   

32 minutes ago, Mariner said:

Batteries fail via a number of processes, of which sulphation is just one.

Lead acid batteries fail due to three main processes. Shedding is one, which can result in secondary problems such as shorted cells. Erosion/corrosion is another and is closely associated with shedding but can result in grid connections disappearing completely, resulting in an open circuit battery. The most common failure in inland waterways use by far is sulphation due to a poor charging regime. The ‘fix’ for sulphation is a controlled over-charge but the side-effect is increased shedding. 

 

In a nutshell there’s no substitute for gentle discharges and full recharges to maximise battery life. 

12 minutes ago, Tony ralph said:

Thank you mariner 

Be careful what you’re thanking. It was very poor advice. 

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Tony - in my view you have fallen foul of poor advice once, do not do it again. The deeper you discharge the battery the more of its cyclic life you use up so discharging to 10 volts is far from fine if done more than  once or twice.

 tony b

Thank you for some good information read all of it .

also read all of the other people who's been adding good information 

everything is starting to take on with me I'll be taking more care and respect  my batteries .

 

Look after your batteries

 they will look after you ?

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Interesting and flys in the face of all I have been taught about FLA batteries.

Could you cite any references so I can read up on it?

 

That explanation about batteries going in "primary" mode below a certain voltage was presented in a lecture, at which I was present, in a chemistry degree course at Nottingham University back around 1975, by a very eminent professor of physical chemistry, Dan Eley OBE, FRS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Eley

Unfortunately, he passed away in 2015 (aged 100!) so I cannot go back to him. The subject of peer-reviewed papers has come up; if anyone finds a peer reviewed paper which claims Dan was wrong, please do share it.

 

 

Edited by Mariner
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27 minutes ago, Mariner said:

That explanation about batteries going in "primary" mode below a certain voltage was presented in a lecture, at which I was present, in a chemistry degree course at Nottingham University back around 1975, by a very eminent professor of physical chemistry, Dan Eley OBE, FRS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Eley

Unfortunately, he passed away in 2015 (aged 100!) so I cannot go back to him. The subject of peer-reviewed papers has come up; if anyone finds a peer reviewed paper which claims Dan was wrong, please do share it.

Of course he was wrong. Either that or you are mis-remembering the lecture. 

 

A primary cell is a single-use cell which cannot be recharged, such as an alkaline cell in a torch. A secondary cell is one which may be recharged, such as a lead acid battery (or Ni-Cad, or Li-ion etc)

 

A primary cell is such a cell because the chemical reaction that creates the stored energy cannot be reversed. 

 

It is possible to discharge a quality deep cycle battery such as a Rolls all the way down to 0.5V and then recharge it all the way back up to 12.6V, thus demonstrating that it’s a secondary cell - no peer review required, it’s a simple fact. If that recharge is performed immediately following the discharge then the battery also won’t demonstrate any significant corrosion or sulphation. 

 

Anyone who’s ever flattened their car battery by leaving an interior light on and then recharged that battery which has continued to work for a year or more has also demonstrated the nonsense of suggesting that it became a primary battery below 10V. 

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What I said in post 66 was "This damages the battery and will reduce its performance and shorten its life".  I did not say deep discharge totally destroys the battery. Before cars were fitted with lights-on alarms, I too flattened batteries on a number of occasions leaving headlights on, and then did re-charge them and continue to use them. The question is, to what degree the battery's performance/life was diminished by that action? To do that once or twice in a battery's life may not be vastly detrimental, but if it's been done on a daily basis it surely has a significant effect?

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