District enforcement mooring fine Reading

[reg]

1 hour ago, thebfg said:

that's because DE entire business model is to collect penalties, Infact that is their only income and their only job, they will not manage anything.

Just to add further to my clarity of thought. It is my understanding that DE are NOT the enforcement agency for TVM sites. Is that correct? 

[Nightwatch]

Depends. At Reading, and I'm fairly certain, other areas they are, here in Oxford they are not mentioned on the signs. You can pay the lockie if you want. There is mention of a £100 charge/fine/penalty if you don't pay up on the TVM sign. It's all very 'unnecessary' in my view. We have found the Thames to be quite good for moorings. Shame about just the one 'jobs worth git'. Sour taste.

 

Back to Canals soon. Phew!

[MtB]

47 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

Depends. At Reading, and I'm fairly certain, other areas they are, here in Oxford they are not mentioned on the signs. You can pay the lockie if you want. There is mention of a £100 charge/fine/penalty if you don't pay up on the TVM sign. It's all very 'unnecessary' in my view. We have found the Thames to be quite good for moorings. Shame about just the one 'jobs worth git'. Sour taste.

 

Back to Canals soon. Phew!

 

I have to say I always feel faintly unwelcome in a narrow boat on the Thames. Maybe just me but I always feel I ought to be in some sort of boat-shaped wooden boat (or fibreglass at a pinch).

 

And the agoraphobia from all that space! It always feels surprisingly lovely and welcoming to get back on a canal with cute little locks again.

[Johny London]

20 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I have to say I always feel faintly unwelcome in a narrow boat on the Thames. Maybe just me but I always feel I ought to be in some sort of boat-shaped wooden boat (or fibreglass at a pinch).

 

And the agoraphobia from all that space! It always feels surprisingly lovely and welcoming to get back on a canal with cute little locks again.

I second that!

[OldGoat]

31 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I have to say I always feel faintly unwelcome in a narrow boat on the Thames. Maybe just me but I always feel I ought to be in some sort of boat-shaped wooden boat (or fibreglass at a pinch).

 

And the agoraphobia from all that space! It always feels surprisingly lovely and welcoming to get back on a canal with cute little locks again.

That's the way I feel about the Severn!

Lockies not easily visible, few places to moor, not many facilities.

 

The Thames is different, there's a towpath telegraph in operation - alike to the canals when there were any staff (lengthsmen and the like). Lockies and even volunteers are happy to help if asked and many welcome NBers as 'we' keep the river alive whilst the locals are tucked up in their marinas until the weekend / annual trip.

We were fervent canallers when we hired and felt like you. Since we built our boat and realised that commuting from Brighton to use it was 'not on', we launched her on the Wey and discovered that the Thames was a pleasant place to cruise and the staff have a lot of local information - if you bother to ask. Hurry though many are coming up to retirement age and may well not be replaced......

[Victor Vectis]

But that's half the fun on the Thames. Taking the pizz out of people who have their snoot turned up to 11!

 

Sharing locks with posh pillocks who put fenders on their fenders to stop the scruffy narrowboat touching their pristine gin palace and awarding a prize to the boat that deploys the greatest number.

 

Ditto a 'Faffer of the Day' award to the person (usually the distaff side of the crew) for the most inefficient exit of a lock. You know, gloves on, walk round the lock, pick up rope, put rope on boat, walk back, coil rope, gloves off etc etc. (Would never do on the BCN Challenge)

 

As for the, ahem, captain the prize goes to the one sporting (in an unironic way) the most admiralish headgear.

 

Anyone else play these sort of games?

 

 

 

[Stilllearning]

5 minutes ago, Victor Vectis said:

But that's half the fun on the Thames. Taking the pizz out of people who have their snoot turned up to 11!

 

Sharing locks with posh pillocks who put fenders on their fenders to stop the scruffy narrowboat touching their pristine gin palace and awarding a prize to the boat that deploys the greatest number.

 

Ditto a 'Faffer of the Day' award to the person (usually the distaff side of the crew) for the most inefficient exit of a lock. You know, gloves on, walk round the lock, pick up rope, put rope on boat, walk back, coil rope, gloves off etc etc. (Would never do on the BCN Challenge)

 

As for the, ahem, captain the prize goes to the one sporting (in an unironic way) the most admiralish headgear.

 

Anyone else play these sort of games?

 

 

 

I did the last time I went down Hatton. The “lady” on the boat that I shared the locks with asked/told me to move my boat to the other side of the lock, so the wet exhaust from my rather clean LPWS4 didn’t sully their paintwork. I did and just smiled sweetly and did as little work as possible at the locks, after all, I was singlehanding.

[OldGoat]

7 minutes ago, Victor Vectis said:

But that's half the fun on the Thames. Taking the pizz out of people who have their snoot turned up to 11!

 

Sharing locks with posh pillocks who put fenders on their fenders to stop the scruffy narrowboat touching their pristine gin palace and awarding a prize to the boat that deploys the greatest number. Trouble is that it's hire boats that have fenders at 12" spacing...

 

Ditto a 'Faffer of the Day' award to the person (usually the distaff side of the crew) for the most inefficient exit of a lock. You know, gloves on, walk round the lock, pick up rope, put rope on boat, walk back, coil rope, gloves off etc etc. (Would never do on the BCN Challenge). Then they roar out of the lock creating loadsa wash (so remain tied up until it's your turn 

 

As for the, ahem, captain the prize goes to the one sporting (in an unironic way) the most admiralish headgear.

 

Anyone else play these sort of games?

Absolutely - it's part of the fun. Just avoid Henley during the Regatta week 5-8 July and the festival in the week following....

 

 

 

 

[thebfg]

4 hours ago, reg said:

Just to add further to my clarity of thought. It is my understanding that DE are NOT the enforcement agency for TVM sites. Is that correct? 

sorry the thread is going of two ways. AFAIK no there not. I am unaware how TVM follow up non payers.

[OldGoat]

51 minutes ago, thebfg said:

5 hours ago, reg said:

Just to add further to my clarity of thought. It is my understanding that DE are NOT the enforcement agency for TVM sites. Is that correct? 

sorry the thread is going of two ways. AFAIK no there not. I am unaware how TVM follow up non payers.

That's correct - inasmuch that defaulters are reported by TVM to the EA who deal with them as they wish (for all I know the EA may use DE for that process, hopefully that's a groundless supposition)

To add to the confusion the signs erected by / on behalf of EA and DE are similar in appearance on a quick glance being predominately green in colour. On a distant view those EA signs are roughly square, DE rectangular. You have to read the signs at close quarters to be sure...

[reg]

Right, got a bit confusing trying to work whether some replies were referring to DE and READING council  or TVM and EA. Not helped much by DE site saying they work closely in conjunction with EA. 

 

Would be useful to have a photo of the TVM signs if at all possible as only DE signs have posted so far. 

 

How a casual visitor to the Thames is supposed to know who they are dealing with only the omnipresent one knows. 

I had to analyse 14 pages of this thread just to get some idea. 

 

Personally I do get the impression that TVM have made a fairly decent stab at addressing this problem and may have the basis of a workable system. 

If only DE could be taken out of the equation we might be on the way to getting somewhere, but that's down to EA to decide whether they want the continued grief of working with them.

The Reading Council and EA alliance I see as a separate and distinct problem. 

 

Slowly becoming a bit clearer. 

 

Edited June 13, 2018 by reg

[OldGoat]

3 minutes ago, reg said:

Right, got a bit confusing trying to work whether some replies were referring to DE and READING council  or TVM and EA. Not helped much by DE site saying they work closely in conjunction with EA. 

 

Would be useful to have a photo of the TVM signs if at all possible as only DE signs have posted so far. 

 

How a casual visitor to the Thames is supposed to know who they are dealing with only the omnipresent one knows. 

I had to analyse 14 pages of thy story thread just to get some idea. 

 

 

I've left my camera on the boat with some pics: of the sign at Osney Lock, but below is a link to EA's announcement of the trial project and a photo heading that article if you don't want to read it

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-arrangements-at-visitor-moorings-on-the-non-tidal-river-thames

 

I can't help pointing out the similarities between TVM and DE and the fact that certainly there was no presence on the Thames of DE's 'product' before TVM's appearance. Couple that with DE's signs being similar and their website 'mirroring' TVM's hard work and presentation is something I find quite repugnant - 'intellectual theft' perhaps. Nowadays, anything goes it seems

[Johny London]

6 hours ago, reg said:

Just to add further to my clarity of thought. It is my understanding that DE are NOT the enforcement agency for TVM sites. Is that correct? 

the info in the last link says: Any enforcement action will be carried out by NSL Ltd, under existing arrangements, but under the pilot, Thames Visitor Moorings will assist Environment Agency staff to carry out spot checks to identify any non-compliance, details of which will be passed by the Environment Agency to to NSL Ltd for them to act on.

 

So as well as EA, DE, TVM and Parkonomy, we have NSL in the mix now!

 

I must say, I spoke to Rex a number of times and his approach is friendly and helpful and I didn't begrudge the fiver for any additional nights - but the DE just put my back right up from the off.

 

However - I spoke to numerous boaters who had overstayed/not paid and thought it quite funny.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Johny London

[erivers]

11 minutes ago, Johny London said:

the info in the last link says: Any enforcement action will be carried out by NSL Ltd, under existing arrangements, but under the pilot, Thames Visitor Moorings will assist Environment Agency staff to carry out spot checks to identify any non-compliance, details of which will be passed by the Environment Agency to to NSL Ltd for them to act on.

 

So as well as EA, DE, TVM and Parkonomy, we have NSL in the mix now!

 

I must say, I spoke to Rex a number of times and his approach is friendly and helpful and I didn't begrudge the fiver for any additional nights - but the DE just put my back right up from the off.

 

However - I spoke to numerous boaters who had overstayed/not paid and thought it quite funny.

3

3

Rex's very commendable friendly and helpful approach might possibly be something to do with the fact that he is retaining 50% of all the mooring fees at the Environment Agency's public moorings!!

And that's in addition to his £4,850 management fee.

Edited June 13, 2018 by erivers

[OldGoat]

3 minutes ago, erivers said:

Rex's very commendable friendly and helpful approach might possibly be something to do with the fact that he is retaining 50% of all the mooring fees at the Environment Agency's public moorings!!

- Do you expect him to provide the 'service' for nothing?

[Johny London]

If DE had used an amiable approach (as per Rex), this thread may never have started!

[MtB]

10 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

- Do you expect him to provide the 'service' for nothing?

 

Is Rex a volunteer then? 

 

Or an EA employee?

[OldGoat]

16 minutes ago, Johny London said:

the info in the last link says: Any enforcement action will be carried out by NSL Ltd, under existing arrangements, but under the pilot, Thames Visitor Moorings will assist Environment Agency staff to carry out spot checks to identify any non-compliance, details of which will be passed by the Environment Agency to to NSL Ltd for them to act on.

 

So as well as EA, DE, TVM and Parkonomy, we have NSL in the mix now!

 

I must say, I spoke to Rex a number of times and his approach is friendly and helpful and I didn't begrudge the fiver for any additional nights - but the DE just put my back right up from the off.

 

However - I spoke to numerous boaters who had overstayed/not paid and thought it quite funny.

Both systems rely on the sites being patrolled and overstayers  being detected. Until recently on EA sites the occasional over stayer cause little problems for other folks wanting to moor, but with continuous moorers doing precisely that EA had to do something. A sharp operator saw a business opportunity and has muscled in for non EA property. Instead of setting up his own design he's filched what TVM had done - and that really sticks in my craw.

[erivers]

17 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

- Do you expect him to provide the 'service' for nothing?

My expectations are that the Environment Agency will do the job it is required to do in managing the River Thames and promoting recreational navigation in return for receiving public money in the form of boat registration fees and government grants.  I do not expect a considerable portion of fees demanded, sometimes unlawfully and sometimes fraudulently, for using the public moorings provided as part of the EA's duty to be passed secretively and with no proper public scrutiny to third parties unilaterally setting themselves up as rulers of the moorings who are able to make up conditions designed solely to help line their grubby pockets.

Edited June 13, 2018 by erivers

[OldGoat]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Is Rex a volunteer then? 

 

Or an EA employee?

Neither

[ditchcrawler]

10 minutes ago, erivers said:

My expectations are that the Environment Agency will do the job it is required to do in managing the River Thames and promoting recreational navigation in return for receiving public money in the form of boat registration fees and government grants.  I do not expect a considerable portion of fees demanded, sometimes unlawfully and sometimes fraudulently, for using the public moorings provided as part of the EA's duty to be passed secretively and with no proper public scrutiny to third parties unilaterally setting themselves up as rulers of the moorings who are able to make up conditions designed solely to help line their grubby pockets.

Which of the EA moorings are demanding money fraudulently ?

[OldGoat]

4 minutes ago, erivers said:

My expectations are that the Environment Agency will do the job it is required to do in managing the River Thames and promoting recreational navigation in return for receiving public money in the form of boat registration fees and government grants.  I do not expect a considerable portion of fees demanded, sometimes unlawfully and sometimes fraudulently, for using the public moorings provided as part of the EA's duty to be passed secretively and with no proper public scrutiny to third parties unilaterally setting themselves up as rulers of the moorings who are able up conditions designed to help line their grubby pockets.

Now, this is either getting in a muddle - or perhaps you are being unreasonable -

Firstly there are two issues  -

Management of EA's moorings

Management of riparian landowners "mooring spaces"

 

 TVM is only concerned with managing EA's moorings -- of which there are relatively few. A couple of years ago EA passed some moorings on to a parking enforcement company who - I guess - couldn't make it pay for them. Somehow Rex came on the scene with a suggestion which EA adopted as a trial.  That's TVM.

As mentioned elsewhere (on YBW) EA's job is only to provide a Navigation for which it get's a government grant. Water, rubbish disposal, pump-outs, bucket-and-chucit, campsites and cafes facilities are a bonus to boaters and the public and not part of EA's duty - (daft, but there-you-are).

I suspect that EA's charges have to be within the current practice - else Questions may be asked - so Rex is unlikely to suffer from the lined grubby pocket syndrome

 

Riparian's right are a different area - they can do what they like. DE saw that and being a business came up with a scheme which could be a nice little earner - but realising that to make any money he's got to raise the ante  - hence the unreasonable terms that we see in the case of Reading.

 

Please don't confuse TVM with DE. Different reasons different business models.

[reg]

1 hour ago, OldGoat said:

 

Please don't confuse TVM with DE. Different reasons different business models

Absolutely 

Chalk and Cheese. 

Reading the TVM site shows Imo that they have tried to provide a working solution to a real problem and have done it with a degree of sympathy towards boaters needs. I don't begrudge them making a living from that. 

 

DE have an entirely different approach which appears to have no sympathy towards boaters needs. I'm still unsure of what the exact tie in with EA they have, as professed on the DE site. but if EA do have a tie in with DE and if EA have any intention of expanding that tie in then I think EA are making a big mistake and it can only lead to ongoing dissent. 

 

So to reiterate your comment

 

"Please don't confuse TVM with DE. Different reasons different business models." 

 

My beef is primarily with DE

 

 

 

 

[OldGoat]

19 minutes ago, reg said:

Absolutely 

Chalk and Cheese. 

Reading the TVM site shows Imo that they have tried to provide a working solution to a real problem and have done it with a degree of sympathy towards boaters needs. I don't begrudge them making a living from that. 

 

DE have an entirely different approach which appears to have no sympathy towards boaters needs. I'm still unsure of what the exact tie in with EA they have, as professed on the DE site. but if EA do have a tie in with DE and if EA have any intention of expanding that tie in then I think EA are making a big mistake and it can only lead to ongoing dissent. 

 

So to reiterate your comment

 

"Please don't confuse TVM with DE. Different reasons different business models." 

 

My beef is primarily with DE

 

 

 

 

Now I'm confused!

I looked at the Oxford moorings last week and it had NSL and TVM's phone number on it. The DE website points to a Youtube video which implies it has something to do with DE... Rubbish; it's an EA video issued 5 years ago (I wondered why Neil Mackie-Smith sat 72 hours free - it's down to 24 hours now) and why the sign showing DE is now NSL. DE got the sack / dropped the contract? It shows you how easy it is to misrepresent things on the web by cutting and pasting information  - and letting the punter make the wrong assumptions. Sharp cookie.

 

For new readers - TVM is still managing EA owned moorings until EA say otherwise.

DE is persuading private landowners to let them manage their field moorings - as anyone cruising above Oxford on the Thames will see a rash of signs now appearing (until they ahem - disappear).

 

It's a sad reflection on modern mores in general that folks can do what they like that has caused EA and others to get tough. Encampments of boats all along the river with scant regard to reasonable behaviour has led to reaction from EA and landowners whereas previously folks who moored overnight / couple of days were accepted if they left the site tidy.

[reg]

3 hours ago, OldGoat said:

 

 

Sorry editor on the blink again, quoted wrong item and won't let me remove it. 

Just ignore this