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34 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Slightly Off Topic I have just read elsewhere that the moorings at Hampton Court have now changed to 24 hrs free and then pay. 

I was there only a couple of days ago and the new signs were covered - although partly visible - so I could see it was the green of TVM or DE...

 

Now I left without reading them but I am sure I noticed while logging on to the TVM site a couple of days earlier that they also had Hampton Court and Barge Walk on their list - which surprised me as I would have thought the parks people would want to carry on looking after their moorings - I notice now they have been removed.

 

I wonder what is going on...?  I have no evidence but my hunch is that the palace is having none of it and keeping their own arrangements and have covered the signs. Or they are now uncovered and the green peril has taken over...

 

Be interesting to know what is going on.

 

Edited by Paringa
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After over a year of trying I have finally got the Environment Agency to 'come clean' over their relationship with Thames Visitor Moorings.

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/thames_visitor_moorings_2#incoming-1171986

 

EA_TVM Contract.pdf

 

They are still a bit shy and secretive about just how much public money they are paying this outfit  ..... but we'll work on that with another complaint to the Information Commissioner if necessary.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Stilllearning said:

The director is also the holder of a law degree, so one would expect him to be more competent than he appears to be, going on present evidence.

Are you sure the director holds a Law Degree? Having read the updated signs they seem to me as flawed as the old one's. The wording reads,"...Mooring at this location is charged at a rate of £9.50 for 24 hours with a maximum 24 hour stay....." which to my less than legal mind is basically saying that if you stay for less than that the charge doesn't apply. An unambiguous sign would read,"...Mooring at this location is charged at a rate of £9.50 for 24 hours or any part thereof with a maximum 24 hour stay.......". In Court DE could try to argue what they actually meant, but it is what the sign actually says that counts.

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, erivers said:

After over a year of trying I have finally got the Environment Agency to 'come clean' over their relationship with Thames Visitor Moorings.

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/thames_visitor_moorings_2#incoming-1171986

 

EA_TVM Contract.pdf

 

They are still a bit shy and secretive about just how much public money they are paying this outfit  ..... but we'll work on that with another complaint to the Information Commissioner if necessary.

 

 

Thanks for that ,it seems to be  another attempt at an Individual making a few Quid out of a River Amenity ,I just cannot understand how this Ridiculous situation ever came about.

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1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

Slightly Off Topic I have just read elsewhere that the moorings at Hampton Court have now changed to 24 hrs free and then pay. 

The contract that erivers has obtained a copy of shows the following requirement by EA For the moorings company to provide. 

So for all the moorings managed by  Thames Visitor Moorings (Trading Name) theses should be provided. 

 

"2    Infrastructure 
   
The Company will 
  Allow vessels to moor for free for the first 24 hour period as per current custom and practice. 
  Provide a facility for vessels to pay for a set period of mooring in line with the terms and conditions of use. 
  Maintain a record for the monitoring and use of ‘the moorings’ 
  Provide access to the record for the client, for the client to view when required. 

"

So it would seem that mooring should be free for all of these moorings for 24 hours. 

 

Thanks for obtaining  that info. 

 

Note that none of the above apply to the  DE moorings though so issues with the DE moorings are still ongoing. 

 

Edited by reg
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19 minutes ago, reg said:

The contract that erivers has obtained a copy of shows the following requirement by EA For the moorings company to provide. 

So for all the moorings managed by  Thames Visitor Moorings (Trading Name) theses should be provided. 

 

"2    Infrastructure 
   
The Company will 
  Allow vessels to moor for free for the first 24 hour period as per current custom and practice. 
  Provide a facility for vessels to pay for a set period of mooring in line with the terms and conditions of use. 
  Maintain a record for the monitoring and use of ‘the moorings’ 
  Provide access to the record for the client, for the client to view when required. 

"

So it would seem that mooring should be free for all of these moorings for 24 hours. 

 

Thanks for obtaining  that info. 

 

Note that none of the above apply to the  DE moorings though so issues with the DE moorings are still ongoing. 

 

Remember that the Tesco moorings are not EA visitor moorings

 

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17 minutes ago, reg said:

The contract that erivers has obtained a copy of shows the following requirement by EA For the moorings company to provide. 

So for all the moorings managed by  Thames Visitor Moorings (Trading Name) theses should be provided. 

 

"2    Infrastructure 
   
The Company will 
  Allow vessels to moor for free for the first 24 hour period as per current custom and practice. 
  Provide a facility for vessels to pay for a set period of mooring in line with the terms and conditions of use. 
  Maintain a record for the monitoring and use of ‘the moorings’ 
  Provide access to the record for the client, for the client to view when required. 

"

So it would seem that mooring should be free for all of these moorings for 24 hours. 

 

Thanks for obtaining  that info. 

 

Note that none of the above apply to the  DE moorings though so issues with the DE moorings are still ongoing. 

 

 

 

In addition, I see the continuance of the contract depends on Key Performance indicator scores being maintained at 75%. 

 

KPI No 2 (page 5)  is as follows:

 

Complaints Procedure

 

The Company will deal with all complaints and acknowledge each respective complaint within a target of five (5) working days of receipt and dealt with as promptly as possible.

 

This suggests to me we boaters are in a position to make life bloody difficult for this company, simply by each of us making as many complaints as we can about anything and everything, but concentrating on how confusing we find the signs. Failure on the part of the company to respond in five days to all of them will result in the KPI 2 falling below 75%, and risking the contract being cancelled.

 

 

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Remember that the Tesco moorings are not EA visitor moorings

 

That's why I added the note at the bottom to point that out. 

But worth reiterating

 

Eta just revised District Enforcement site and they are quoting the following 

"From the Environment Agency: "Boaters are welcome to stay at our visitor moorings on the River Thames for up to 24 hours, unless the signs indicate a longer period is permitted. The time limit ensures other boaters are able to enjoy access to the moorings too. We are continuing to work in partnership with District Enforcement to manage the new approach at Oxford and Weybridge to ensure all boats honour a permitted 72-hour limit."

 

There is no mention on the District Enforcement site Moorings page of anything other than the EA sites, so a visit to the DE site would give the impression that the above  conditions would apply to all of their Thames managed sites as there is no clear indication to the contrary, certainly no indication of the conditions of the Reading Borough Council sites. 

Dogs dinner comes to mind

 

Edited by reg
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Just being researching the DE appeals process and it appears that there is no independent appeals process for mooring. A number of avenues exist for parking but not for mooring.

Maybe EA would like to clarify why no independent appeals process exists and why their contract, as far as I can see, does not seem to require this. 

If parking type enforcement is to be used for mooring then parking type protections need to be put in place. 

 

Then again maybe the real problem is that parking type enforcement, particularly with the lack of consumer protections being in place, is not appropriate to mooring. 

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14 hours ago, reg said:

The contract that erivers has obtained a copy of shows the following requirement by EA For the moorings company to provide. 

So for all the moorings managed by  Thames Visitor Moorings (Trading Name) theses should be provided. 

 

"2    Infrastructure 
   
The Company will 
  Allow vessels to moor for free for the first 24 hour period as per current custom and practice. 
  Provide a facility for vessels to pay for a set period of mooring in line with the terms and conditions of use. 
  Maintain a record for the monitoring and use of ‘the moorings’ 
  Provide access to the record for the client, for the client to view when required. 

"

So it would seem that mooring should be free for all of these moorings for 24 hours. 

 

Thanks for obtaining  that info. 

 

Note that none of the above apply to the  DE moorings though so issues with the DE moorings are still ongoing. 

 

Have stayed for more than 24 Hours at EA moorings about 10 Times in the last 45 Years ,usually for Emergency or Weather reasons(twice when the River went into Flood Conditions and were advised not to move by EA staff)

Should there be a need to stay beyond 24 Hours again I will offer the 5 Pounds per day to Lock Staff or EA Personnel.

Will not offer Monies to D.E. or T.V.M. whatever the Circumstances.

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On 11/06/2018 at 11:48, reg said:

I'm still not sure personally what laws and regulations DE are working under when it comes to mooring and whether parking practices and regulations can be applied to mooring.

I think it is more of a case of civil law by precedent and case law - where there are a lot of pointers as established in car parking in practice

More to the point, how will the boater be 'caught' and the appropriate evidence be obtained, and how will payment be enforced?

Some will 'chicken' out and pay up. Some will fight it.

Personally, I feel that if someone stops to read the sign and decides to move on, they will not be caught. But if someone moors overnight and gets caught, and then uses 'clever' legal argument to dodge payment - then serves them right!

 

 

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14 hours ago, reg said:

That's why I added the note at the bottom to point that out. 

But worth reiterating

 

Eta just revised District Enforcement site and they are quoting the following 

"From the Environment Agency: "Boaters are welcome to stay at our visitor moorings on the River Thames for up to 24 hours, unless the signs indicate a longer period is permitted. The time limit ensures other boaters are able to enjoy access to the moorings too. We are continuing to work in partnership with District Enforcement to manage the new approach at Oxford and Weybridge to ensure all boats honour a permitted 72-hour limit."

 

There is no mention on the District Enforcement site Moorings page of anything other than the EA sites, so a visit to the DE site would give the impression that the above  conditions would apply to all of their Thames managed sites as there is no clear indication to the contrary, certainly no indication of the conditions of the Reading Borough Council sites. 

Dogs dinner comes to mind

 

A complete and utter mess as you infer. TVM had/has a contract with EA - and which EA are dithering about extending. Rex has spent a lot of effort in listing the EA moorings in order and a mine of other information - most of which has been lifted by RE and replicated - poorly - on their own site with the result the boaters will get confused as to where they can moor without charge. The net result will be that folks will be reluctant to stop and enjoy what the Thames corridor provides.

Have another look at the (poor) DE site and you'll see sites other than EA moorings listed, often with a poor description of the length of mooring. There's one above Oxford that states "20" (what units I wonder, feet, metres, miles or boats?) and is about 2 miles long - so where do you stand?) 

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1 hour ago, OldGoat said:

A complete and utter mess as you infer. TVM had/has a contract with EA - and which EA are dithering about extending. Rex has spent a lot of effort in listing the EA moorings in order and a mine of other information - most of which has been lifted by RE and replicated - poorly - on their own site with the result the boaters will get confused as to where they can moor without charge. The net result will be that folks will be reluctant to stop and enjoy what the Thames corridor provides.

Have another look at the (poor) DE site and you'll see sites other than EA moorings listed, often with a poor description of the length of mooring. There's one above Oxford that states "20" (what units I wonder, feet, metres, miles or boats?) and is about 2 miles long - so where do you stand?) 

I think it is difficult, because of the overall mess , to identify where the real problems are. 

TVM Looking at their site they appear to be an entity that maybe it will be possible to do business with and, controversially, we could get behind and could work with, together with EA, to iron out current and future problems. 

DE Personally I have no faith in these whatsoever, particularly with their background, history and the directors duel and conflicting directorships. 

Parkonomy. Don't understand their role and how they got involved, personally would not want to work with them. 

 

Maybe it's time to start a new thread along the lines of TVM. Thames Visitor Moorings TVM can we work with them? 

Here is a link to their FAQ Section 

https://www.thamesvisitormoorings.co.uk/faq/

Well worth reading the rest of the site. 

 

As a none Thames user, but a potential one, I am not best placed to start that debate as my beef is primarily with the DE Practices (which was the starting point for this whole thread) . 

 

Edited by reg
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Thanks for visibility of the EA/TVM contract. When I first became aware of TVM I (naively) thought that their income would be from mooring fees and I could never see how they could collect enough to run their service and pay some over to EA. Seems I was correct on that score in that EA are actually paying TVM! 

 

So the arrangement is even worse than I originally thought. It looks like the EA moorings are actually costing money to run, rather than contributing anything to EA coffers. 

 

I'd love to see the figures for the 12 month trial period.

Edited by RichLech
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Just arrived, a couple of hours ago, at east street moorings in Oxford. Signs say phone this number to register your arrival. First night free, the £5 a night up to 72 hours. I called the number. Left a message that I'm here. Stated that I may stay a second night. Within minutes I got a call stating, nicely, that  they think d like to give then £5. I said it's free fir one night. But as I said that I had infact stated I may stay a second night they thought I might like to pay it now. I said no set plans but if I do stay I'll pay the lockie. Which I will do. These mooring are TVM, the signs don't mention DE. The guy was pleasent enough but hey! I'm boating. I don't need hassle. 

 

Earlier at Sandford Lock, I followed a boat into the Lock that we have travelled with since the K&A, he know me and I know him and how he secures in a Lock, I was abruptly informed that I entered the Lock too quickly after Mike and I shouldn't do it again. What a jobs worth. He then marched about the Lock looking for our displayed Thames licence. He then equally abruptly said to Mrs Nightwatch that it should be displayed in the front window. What a tit!!

 

i wished him well fir the rest of his life and cruised onwards. The worst person I gave met on the Thames over the years. Maybe he'd like to retire.

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8 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

Just arrived, a couple of hours ago, at east street moorings in Oxford. Signs say phone this number to register your arrival. First night free, the £5 a night up to 72 hours. I called the number. Left a message that I'm here. Stated that I may stay a second night. Within minutes I got a call stating, nicely, that  they think d like to give then £5. I said it's free fir one night. But as I said that I had infact stated I may stay a second night they thought I might like to pay it now. I said no set plans but if I do stay I'll pay the lockie. Which I will do. These mooring are TVM, the signs don't mention DE. The guy was pleasent enough but hey! I'm boating. I don't need hassle. 

 

Earlier at Sandford Lock, I followed a boat into the Lock that we have travelled with since the K&A, he know me and I know him and how he secures in a Lock, I was abruptly informed that I entered the Lock too quickly after Mike and I shouldn't do it again. What a jobs worth. He then marched about the Lock looking for our displayed Thames licence. He then equally abruptly said to Mrs Nightwatch that it should be displayed in the front window. What a tit!!

 

i wished him well fir the rest of his life and cruised onwards. The worst person I gave met on the Thames over the years. Maybe he'd like to retire.

The first was Rex, he's a boater who set up TVM to try and make mooring fair for all who truly boat (rather than just moor as you'll see when you get to Oxford).

The second was probably a relief rather than the Resident lockie - who is a good 'un).  Notwithstanding, he's under notice from EA to keep a watch on unregistered boats (or he's on a fizzer if he's seen not to check). He's right - those are the regs: and he gets a lot of unregistered boats passing through.

I'm sorry you were hassled...

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3 hours ago, RichLech said:

 

 

So the arrangement is even worse than I originally thought. It looks like the EA moorings are actually costing money to run, rather than contributing anything to EA coffers. 

 

I'd love to see the figures for the 12 month trial period.

Which is why they refused to answer the second part of the FOI request.

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27 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

The first was Rex, he's a boater who set up TVM to try and make mooring fair for all who truly boat (rather than just moor as you'll see when you get to Oxford).

The second was probably a relief rather than the Resident lockie - who is a good 'un).  Notwithstanding, he's under notice from EA to keep a watch on unregistered boats (or he's on a fizzer if he's seen not to check). He's right - those are the regs: and he gets a lot of unregistered boats passing through.

I'm sorry you were hassled...

Is Rex expecting to earn a good Crust from this Enterprise and how does this new system stop improper mooring on EA sites?

Overstayers will just Pitch up and ignore the TVM signs and Rule abiding Boaters will be put off using them.

How does this system Promote 'Fairness' for Mooring?

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48 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

The first was Rex, he's a boater who set up TVM to try and make mooring fair for all who truly boat (rather than just moor as you'll see when you get to Oxford).

The second was probably a relief rather than the Resident lockie - who is a good 'un).  Notwithstanding, he's under notice from EA to keep a watch on unregistered boats (or he's on a fizzer if he's seen not to check). He's right - those are the regs: and he gets a lot of unregistered boats passing through.

I'm sorry you were hassled...

It's so good to know that the public-spirited Rex is acting so altruistically.  I feared just for one brief moment that his real interest might actually be feathering his own nest from unenforceable mooring fees.

Perhaps though, in his fine public-spirited endeavours on behalf of boaters he would merit a little more credibility and respect if he made sure the information given on his pretty website and signs was factually correct.

A good start would be to make it clear to Thames boaters that NO CHARGE is payable for mooring at any site owned by the Environment Agency OVERNIGHT or for a reasonable time by virtue of Section 136 of the Thames Conservancy Act 1932.  For genuine overnight mooring or for staying for a reasonable time (generally considered purely by tradition to be 24-hours but not specifically defined in legislation) no charges are payable and thus there can be no obligation to register for such entirely lawful free use.  Sadly, not a lot of pennies in that to help top-up Rex's pension.

 

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2 hours ago, erivers said:

It's so good to know that the public-spirited Rex is acting so altruistically.  I feared just for one brief moment that his real interest might actually be feathering his own nest from unenforceable mooring fees.

Perhaps though, in his fine public-spirited endeavours on behalf of boaters he would merit a little more credibility and respect if he made sure the information given on his pretty website and signs was factually correct.

A good start would be to make it clear to Thames boaters that NO CHARGE is payable for mooring at any site owned by the Environment Agency OVERNIGHT or for a reasonable time by virtue of Section 136 of the Thames Conservancy Act 1932.  For genuine overnight mooring or for staying for a reasonable time (generally considered purely by tradition to be 24-hours but not specifically defined in legislation) no charges are payable and thus there can be no obligation to register for such entirely lawful free use.  Sadly, not a lot of pennies in that to help top-up Rex's pension.

 

Just to help keep the 2 entities separate TVM and DE and to try to clarify some of the intertwined elements of thus thread. 

TVM

TVM do make it clear on their site that the first 24 hours are free

TVM None of the photos so far in the thread are of TVM signs they are all DE signs so I can not say whether your point about that is correct or not, has anyone any photos of TVM signs? If they have it could be useful if they posted them. 

TVM. There may be issues about the requirement to register on arrival these are worthy of discussion. 

 

 

DE 

DE All photos on this thread are of DE signs

DE A lot of misinformation on both signs and websites referred to in this thread are related to DE sites. 

DE A lot of the discussion in the thread relates to DE's relation with READING Council I.e has no relationship to EA at all. 

 

I only state the above to try to keep a clarity of the positions on these 2 separate entities. 

 

It is a case of "know thine enemy" 

 

My personal view, previously stated, is that

TVM appears to of been setup to try to  address a real problem and, looking at it in some detail, would appear to of come up with a largely workable solution. 

 

DE I simply have no faith in and have no wish to interact with them at all. 

 

Of the 2 above I believe that EA may have a better chance of getting  some form of consensus on a way forward by continuing to work with TVM. Conversely I see nothing but dissent if EA should choose to work with DE. 

Edited by reg
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3 hours ago, cereal tiller said:

Is Rex expecting to earn a good Crust from this Enterprise and how does this new system stop improper mooring on EA sites?

Overstayers will just Pitch up and ignore the TVM signs and Rule abiding Boaters will be put off using them.

How does this system Promote 'Fairness' for Mooring?

 

My thoughts coincide.

 

These ultra-aggressive signs I think, are intended to speak to the 'I know my rights' brigade who take the piss monumentally and couldn't give a stuff about the effect their mooring behaviour has on proper boaters. They will however ignore the signs as they take the trouble to be 'hard to trace'.

 

I'm puzzled why you think 'fairness' for mooring is mandatory though...

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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On 11/06/2018 at 22:44, erivers said:

After over a year of trying I have finally got the Environment Agency to 'come clean' over their relationship with Thames Visitor Moorings.

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/thames_visitor_moorings_2#incoming-1171986

 

EA_TVM Contract.pdf

 

They are still a bit shy and secretive about just how much public money they are paying this outfit  ..... but we'll work on that with another complaint to the Information Commissioner if necessary.

 

 

Interesting that "the moorings" are defined as one square metre at each location.

 

"But my position wasn't SU 21314 99380: it was SU 21312 99381"

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12 hours ago, Nightwatch said:

Just arrived, a couple of hours ago, at east street moorings in Oxford. Signs say phone this number to register your arrival. First night free, the £5 a night up to 72 hours. I called the number. Left a message that I'm here. Stated that I may stay a second night. Within minutes I got a call stating, nicely, that  they think d like to give then £5. I said it's free fir one night. But as I said that I had infact stated I may stay a second night they thought I might like to pay it now. I said no set plans but if I do stay I'll pay the lockie. Which I will do. These mooring are TVM, the signs don't mention DE. The guy was pleasent enough but hey! I'm boating. I don't need hassle. 

 

Earlier at Sandford Lock, I followed a boat into the Lock that we have travelled with since the K&A, he know me and I know him and how he secures in a Lock, I was abruptly informed that I entered the Lock too quickly after Mike and I shouldn't do it again. What a jobs worth. He then marched about the Lock looking for our displayed Thames licence. He then equally abruptly said to Mrs Nightwatch that it should be displayed in the front window. What a tit!!

 

i wished him well fir the rest of his life and cruised onwards. The worst person I gave met on the Thames over the years. Maybe he'd like to retire.

I wonder what he says when a boat like my old NB comes along, with no front window?

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I played the game - pre-registered - went to Hampton Court* - logged in and registered my arrival within 2 mins of mooring up (online via mobile). Got first night free and stayed second night. Never got charged. From there over to Lady Linsay's lawn and again registered arrival (mobile).

 

* Ironically not more than a couple of 100 yards from there there is a boat shanty town recently set up by Trottman.

 

At Hampton Court there was a decent turnover of boats arriving and leaving.

 

 

Edited by mark99
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8 hours ago, reg said:

Just to help keep the 2 entities separate TVM and DE and to try to clarify some of the intertwined elements of thus thread. 

TVM

TVM do make it clear on their site that the first 24 hours are free

TVM None of the photos so far in the thread are of TVM signs they are all DE signs so I can not say whether your point about that is correct or not, has anyone any photos of TVM signs? If they have it could be useful if they posted them. 

TVM. There may be issues about the requirement to register on arrival these are worthy of discussion. 

 

 

DE 

DE All photos on this thread are of DE signs

DE A lot of misinformation on both signs and websites referred to in this thread are related to DE sites. 

DE A lot of the discussion in the thread relates to DE's relation with READING Council I.e has no relationship to EA at all. 

 

I only state the above to try to keep a clarity of the positions on these 2 separate entities. 

 

It is a case of "know thine enemy" 

 

My personal view, previously stated, is that

TVM appears to of been setup to try to  address a real problem and, looking at it in some detail, would appear to of come up with a largely workable solution. 

 

DE I simply have no faith in and have no wish to interact with them at all. 

 

Of the 2 above I believe that EA may have a better chance of getting  some form of consensus on a way forward by continuing to work with TVM. Conversely I see nothing but dissent if EA should choose to work with DE. 

that's because DE entire business model is to collect penalties, Infact that is their only income and their only job, they will not manage anything.

Edited by thebfg
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