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District enforcement mooring fine Reading


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1 hour ago, francois wilton said:

Hi , no warning signs visible from pontoon so we stayed 2 days

So you overstayed. 

There are very few if any free moorings on the Thames that are more than 24hours. 

Possibly  Abingdon is the only one. 

Worth remembering if you venture back on the Thames

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Just now, Loddon said:

So you overstayed. 

There are very few if any free moorings on the Thames that are more than 24hours. 

Possibly  Abingdon is the only one. 

Worth remembering if you venture back on the Thames

Yes, we're in Abingdon now, 3 days mooring for free, could hardly believe it.

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Well according to the sign you are in breach simply by stopping to read the sign. 

It also states that "It is important to read this notice in full" however there does appear to be a lot of writing and small print on the sign it certainly does not provide a succinct message. 

Is there an equivalent to the Traffic Fine Tribunal or an ombudsman for mooring? I can not find any online if so what is the appeal process? Can it be handled like a traffic offence? 

Many questions, which I'm afraid I'm not qualified to answer the problem seems to be who can provide the answer EA?, CRT? DISTRICT ENFORCEMENT? 

All seems very murky and unclear, would this level of obfuscation be allowed in a car park nowadays? I suspect not. On top of that boats are not like road vehicles in that you first have to find a mooring, tie up, secure you vehicle and, now it would seem, you then have to wander around on the off chance that a sign may be placed somewhere with a lot of small print on it which you have to digest and understand. That's the best part of 30 to 40 minutes gone. 

All seems very aggressive. I can understand their motivation for this but their methodology seems out of order particularly for casual visitors. 

Good luck with this I hope you get a good result. 

NH_BRK_18082017Mooring.jpg

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I came back to my car in Birmingham in the early hours once many years ago to find my car ‘clamped’ with a large triangular steel plate, a heavy chain, and a padlock. “Where’s the bloody sign?” I exclaimed. “You’ve parked under it” pointed out the missus helpfully. 

 

I left them their steel plate, the chain, and all the pieces of their padlock. That probably wouldn’t work these days. 

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20 minutes ago, reg said:

Well according to the sign you are in breach simply by stopping to read the sign. 

It also states that "It is important to read this notice in full" however there does appear to be a lot of writing and small print on the sign it certainly does not provide a succinct message. 

Is there an equivalent to the Traffic Fine Tribunal or an ombudsman for mooring? I can not find any online if so what is the appeal process? Can it be handled like a traffic offence? 

Many questions, which I'm afraid I'm not qualified to answer the problem seems to be who can provide the answer EA?, CRT? DISTRICT ENFORCEMENT? 

All seems very murky and unclear, would this level of obfuscation be allowed in a car park nowadays? I suspect not. On top of that boats are not like road vehicles in that you first have to find a mooring, tie up, secure you vehicle and, now it would seem, you then have to wander around on the off chance that a sign may be placed somewhere with a lot of small print on it which you have to digest and understand. That's the best part of 30 to 40 minutes gone. 

All seems very aggressive. I can understand their motivation for this but their methodology seems out of order particularly for casual visitors. 

Good luck with this I hope you get a good result. 

NH_BRK_18082017Mooring.jpg

It says you should read the notice in full.......but also says anyone mooring, stopping or anchoring to read the notice will pay the £100 fine, isnt that entrapment?

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Interestingly where CRT use EA the terms and conditions state

" Q If I moor without permission, will I get a MOCN straight away?
A. If your boat is sighted at one of our Waterside Mooring sites without permission, you will be notified and given 48 hrs to move the boat off the site. If you fail to move the boat after 48hrs, you will be issued with a MOCN for being in breach of the conditions on the sign."

 

Not sure if thus applies on the EA mooring but it might be worth the OP checking. 

https://www.watersidemooring.com/News/View/19/mooring-enforcement-measures

 

Question and Answers PDF

 

http://www.watersidemooring.com/media/Enforcement/FAQs.pdf

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I would suggest that this is an absolute nonsense.  When they sent you a photo of the sign did they send you a date stamped photo of your boat in situ together with a date stamped photo of the relevant sign together with your boat position in relation to that sign?  Exactly how are they going to prove the offence.  They did not provide you with a copy of any paperwork created in the recording of the alleged offence/infringement and nothing was left on your boat to indicate that you were not permitted to moor there.  Surely this is a breach of natural justice and I’m not really sure how any court would allow a prosecution.

Even if they go down the civil route I can’t possibly see how this process would be allowed.

I am no lawyer/solicitor but I am pretty convinced of my views.  I would look up the use of freedom of information as to how many ‘tickets’ have been issued at that location and the outcome.  I don’t know if foi applies to this but as it concerns a public authority I would look it up.

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4 minutes ago, Dartagnan said:

Surely this is a breach of natural justice and I’m not really sure how any court would allow a prosecution.

Even if they go down the civil route I can’t possibly see how this process would be allowed.

 

But as there have been no laws broken here prosecution is impossible. This is purely a civil dispute, for breach of 'contract'.

 

This is pretty much the same deal as parking 'fines' on private property (unlike actual parking fines on public highways / council owned car parks which are actually fines as parking restrictions there are enshrined in law - albeit local bylaws in many cases).

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If you look on https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/ forum, there's lots of info on car parking 'fines', including the 'Parking Eye' bandits. 

Irrespective of data protection, DVLA provides this private company (think they are from the Netherlands) with your address, which is used to send parking 'offenders' a 'fine', but it's not a fine, only a court can issue a fine. The word is used to panic you. The forum advises that you don't respond to the letter/fine, and not to admit you received the letter. You will receive another letter upping the 'fine' amount, which again is pressure to panic you. If you hold your nerve, and ignore the letter, they do stop.  It's worth doing a search on the https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/ 's forum. We had a parking 'fine' from Parking Eye - we didn't (in our opinion) park illegally, and we didn't pay.

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In case this helps to clarify the discussion, the moorings next to Tesco at Reading are on the Thames, for which EA are the navigation authority all the way from Lechlade down to just below Teddington Lock. The last mile or so of the Kennet (which enters the Thames just downstream from Tesco's) also comes under EA, including Blake's lock. CRT waters end somewhere between that and the next lock up, which is County Lock.

 

In general (but there will be exceptions I'm sure) on canals the towpath belongs to the navigation authority (mostly that's CRT) and the offside to private owners but CRT has a lot of say in who can moor there. But on rivers the landowners along the banks own the mooring rights, and the navigation authority (often EA) just deals with boat safety and charging to register a boat to be on the water.

 

So Reading council are the owners here, but I suppose they've made some deal with this "District Enforcement" lot. Which may or may not hold water legally. Certainly in English law a contract cannot exist without offer and acceptance, and it seems doubtful to me that they can show that a boater has accepted.

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District Enforcement Limited is based in Derbyshire and has something of a reputation for its aggressive and threatening treatment of motorists in order to extract penalty charges for alleged overstaying at car parks where displayed signs (which are a requirement to form a contract) are not clear.  They have lost a number of challenges to their dubious practices in court and been criticised by a judge.  

The sole director of the company is Mr Danylo Kurpil who it appears has rather cunningly also become a director of The River Thames Alliance in order to now extend his personal enrichment from unlawful so-called "parking fines" by extracting ever-increasing penalty charges by means of threats to users of River Thames moorings owned privately or by the Environment Agency or councils who are members of the River Thames Alliance.  A clearer example of conflict of interest would be hard to imagine.

You should write once, and once only, to Mr Kurpil stating that in the circumstances you have described his "mooring charge notice" has no basis in law and that you will not be making any payment or responding to further threats.  

 

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I agree with Jennifer mcm.

 

swmbo recently fell foul of one of these parking eye type parking companies, they sent endless letters saying if we paid within 14 days it would be 60 quid, we were getting 3 or 4 demands a week sometimes two on the same day I would have loved them to take us to court I think a counter charge of harassment would have been lucrative.... Eventually we got a computer generated solicitors letter final warning, before court action which has never materialised shame really would have been fun...

 

i would simply bin the moor charge thing don't enter into correspondence as you are admitting liability or at least admitting you were there. It's for them to prove that you were ad understood you had entered a contract if in the very utterly improbable event it did go to court.  

 

Have a good laugh and throw it in the bin.

Edited by jonathanA
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14 hours ago, matty40s said:

It says you should read the notice in full.......but also says anyone mooring, stopping or anchoring to read the notice will pay the £100 fine, isnt that entrapment?

And why is call The Coal Woodland Moorings

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I'm not sure if this has any relevance - but I came across the same thing further down the Thames at what is called Ryepeck moorings. There is a sign there advising £100 per day mooring charge reduced to £60 if payed promptly (I don't have a picture so cannot tell you if it is identical to the one in this thread). The strange thing is it is listed on the EA visitors guide for moorings...

https://www.thamesvisitormoorings.co.uk/moorings/Ryepeck-moorings/

In this case owned by Spelthorne borough council. I phoned EA about it and they said basically the council don't want anyone to moor there. I cannot see the point then in advertising it as a mooring. Clearly something is going on.

I would add that there are signs warning of under water obstructions (gabeon baskets?) in this case. Very puzzling.

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16 hours ago, WotEver said:

Personally, I would write to them stating clearly and politely that there were no signs on the pontoon advising that mooring was restricted and therefore you decline their kind offer to pay them £160. 

I’d then wait and see what they do, and if they take it to court I’d use the same defence. No signs, no enforcement. 

However, you might be less bolshie than me and more risk averse, so hopefully someone with some legal knowledge might be along to advise. @NigelMoore?

In the mean time, Matty’s advice seems sound. 

Being a passive individual, I would support the quiet polite approach like WotEver #5 and Phantom-1v #7.  Explain the facts and ask for more information and help in arriving at an amicable solution - keep  the matty40s #4 advice up your sleeve for a later date.

If it was me, and I got nowhere initially, and I was certain of my legal case, I would not pay up and let them take me to court.

Or pay up eventually, and make as much fuss as possible if I was sure of a moral case.

 

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The worrying thing is that it is spreading to the CRT waters as well, as per my previous link here

https://www.watersidemooring.com/News/View/19/mooring-enforcement-measures

I actually don't have a problem with the CRT selection as the places marked out would seem to address a real problem for those with paid moorings however I would have a problem with the methodology if 

1 THE SIGNS ARE NOT CLEARLY VISIBLE AND CANNOT BE EASILY READ FROM A BOAT BEFORE IT MOORS 

2 CRT RULES OF NOTIFICATION  BEFOR ISSUING OF "FINES" ARE NOT FOLLOWED

 

IT MAY BE OF USE IF EVERYONE CAN PHOTOGRAPH THESE SIGNS AND INDICATE IF THEY ARE CLEARLY VISIBLE FROM PASSING BOATS AND ALSO INDICATE WHETHER IT IS POSSIBLE TO FULLY READ, WHICH THEY STATE YOU MUST DO, ALL OF THE SIGN WITHOUT THE NEED TO MOOR UP FIRST. 

 

At least CRT have laid out the conditions in advance I am not sure if the EA have laid out the conditions as clearly. 

Reading the CRT Q and A section it would appear that District Enforcement preferred method of operation is to try it on and have issues resolved in a court, their bumf even warns you that this is what they do and, to paraphrase, "warn you that it may be costly to you if you are silly enough to take us on at court" 

Trial Sites List.jpg

Edited by reg
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15 hours ago, Jennifer McM said:

Yes, we're in Abingdon now, 3 days mooring for free, could hardly believe it.

It was indeed 5 days, as Ditchcrawler says. That was until last autumn when it was reduced to 3 due to abuse by CMers who, apparently, simply refused to move when asked to. Hopefully the greater turnaround due to the 3 day max will make it easier to find spaces. It can get pretty busy in summer, though I saw lots of spaces when I walked along last Saturday at the start of the heatwave. There was nothing on the section below the locks and there were spaces both sides at the Abbey Meadows play area.

 

Hope you are enjoying your stay. I'm in Abingdon too but unfortunately the boat isn't as I'm at home and the boat is 50 miles away. Roll on the 22nd when we're back afloat. And roll on July when, hopefully, we can bring the boat back down to Abingdon for a 2nd time.

 

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For the first time in years I managed to stop at the Reading Tesco mooring, praised the lads doing the work on the pontoon and went to Tesco. Didn't see any signs. Ten minutes later I was back on the boat and moving off with a smile - I won't be smiling if I get a letter and a fine. That was a fortnight ago. Whoever is in charge of the mooring needs to be clear on what they want. No mooring, overnight for a tenner or no charge if you pop in for a shop. I won't risk it again until things are clear.

 

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13 hours ago, Jennifer McM said:

If you look on https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/ forum, there's lots of info on car parking 'fines', including the 'Parking Eye' bandits. 

Irrespective of data protection, DVLA provides this private company (think they are from the Netherlands) with your address, which is used to send parking 'offenders' a 'fine', but it's not a fine, only a court can issue a fine. The word is used to panic you. The forum advises that you don't respond to the letter/fine, and not to admit you received the letter. You will receive another letter upping the 'fine' amount, which again is pressure to panic you. If you hold your nerve, and ignore the letter, they do stop.  It's worth doing a search on the https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/ 's forum. We had a parking 'fine' from Parking Eye - we didn't (in our opinion) park illegally, and we didn't pay.

Four years on still get reminders about the "fine" I have never responded to them easiest way 

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The OP should also ask the navigation authority with which his boat is registered (presumably C&RT) to explain the circumstances and authority under which his details were provided to this company of debt collectors. 

Compare this to the legislation covering enforcement of private parking penalties - Section 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.  The DVLA will only give out registered keeper details to a parking company if it is a member of a recognised trade association which operates an independent appeals service and sets a maximum penalty charge and strict conditions of on-site ticketing or service of notice by post have been complied with.  One large outfit - UKPC - has just been banned from accessing DVLA data for breaches.

There is no such protection for users of the waterways so it is hardly surprising that the parking bandits such as District Enforcement are freely extending their lucrative money making scheme and threats to the waterways.

I have no sympathy with over-stayers and IMO they should expect to pay any reasonable charge that has been clearly notified by signs placed in clear view on a mooring.  But, and considering the current desperate scarcity of funding for waterways and in the case of public moorings owned by C&RT or the EA, all lawful charges should be retained by the navigation authority not passed to these bottom-feeding chancers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by erivers
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There is also a home security issue here. If CRT or the EA provide this company with the home address of the owners of a boat moving around the system, they are also providing the information that the house is likely to be unoccupied at the time.

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