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March of the Widebeams


cuthound

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

From the licence T&Cs

 

Electric Motor 25% discount if the Boat has an electric motor as its sole means of propulsion.

 

I would guess from that that if you have an engine (for charging your batteries) that is NOT connected to the prop shaft then the answer would be 'yes'.

 

You could run the engine, simply to turn an electric motor that in turn rotated the prop.

The Eastern European Ladies boat is electrically powered and gets a 25% reduction but uses a diesel outboard for more power

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7 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

The Eastern European Ladies boat is electrically powered and gets a 25% reduction but uses a diesel outboard for more power

 

I get the impression they originally had electric power only, but forgot to tell CRT when they added the diesel engine to make it go further than a few hundred yards. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You could run the engine, simply to turn an electric motor that in turn rotated the prop.

This is the principle behind Diesel-electric trains, which have been around since the 1930s.

The advantage in a boat is that the engine could be anywhere.  It could even be accessible rather that stuffed down a hole in the counter.

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5 minutes ago, Chris Williams said:

This is the principle behind Diesel-electric trains, which have been around since the 1930s.

The advantage in a boat is that the engine could be anywhere.  It could even be accessible rather that stuffed down a hole in the counter.

What in an engine room? that's a novel idea

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46 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

What in an engine room? that's a novel idea

Yep, could even have the fuel tanks in there, not to mention 'The Bucket'.

 

Rolt's 'Cressy' had the engine mounted on the back deck, very accessible.

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17 hours ago, matty40s said:

 

 

just for information, this vessel weighed in at 50 1/2 tonnes.

 

The huge Tyler Wilson/Finesse Brigantine was 50 tonnes -- I'd be surprised if the Elton Moss was as much as that.

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7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

From the licence T&Cs

 

Electric Motor 25% discount if the Boat has an electric motor as its sole means of propulsion.

 

I would guess from that that if you have an engine (for charging your batteries) that is NOT connected to the prop shaft then the answer would be 'yes'.

 

You could run the engine, simply to turn an electric motor that in turn rotated the prop.

 

7 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

That's how I interpret it too. 

 

Engine>propeller = maximum efficiency and minimum losses

Engine>generator>battery charger>battery>electric motor>propeller = minimum efficiency and maximum losses

 

 

The 25% discount should apply to the first case not the second, if saving the planet is the point of the discount!

 

 

From experience of the license process [very hard work] it has to have an electric motor driving the propeller it cant be a hybrid ie diesel engine with electric motor piggy backed on.

I sent Mike a video of my boat motor today and the attendant plume of water when I was at full power [381 amps and 22KW], he seemed impressed, now my motor runs at 60 volts and 3 MPH uses 36 amps or 2.3KW, my solar can develop over 26 amps in good sun so its not really an issue doing 3 - 4 hours a day which suits me, I could do more but why bother? Every lock means that my batteries charge up a bit, and I can if needed go for about six hours just on the batteries, I enjoy the silence and the fact that my cruising and hot water is for free [drive solar runs the immersion when not needed] So whats not to like about electric boats?

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3 hours ago, Chris Williams said:

This is the principle behind Diesel-electric trains, which have been around since the 1930s.

The advantage in a boat is that the engine could be anywhere.  It could even be accessible rather that stuffed down a hole in the counter.

The advantage is that the engine runs at a constant speed and can be a lot smaller therefore using less fuel.

I remember seeing a narrow boat with this set up back in the nineties, the owner said that the only draw back was people shouting at him to slow down because the sound from the engine gave the impression that he was going faster than he actually was.

 

Keith

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30 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

The advantage is that the engine runs at a constant speed and can be a lot smaller therefore using less fuel.

I remember seeing a narrow boat with this set up back in the nineties, the owner said that the only draw back was people shouting at him to slow down because the sound from the engine gave the impression that he was going faster than he actually was.

 

Keith

It was the same with the Beta cocooned engine with a trolling valve to alter the speed, it ran at 1500 rpm I believe, constantly. 

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36 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

The advantage is that the engine runs at a constant speed and can be a lot smaller therefore using less fuel.

I know this is oft repeated but I'm not totally in agreement.

All diesel engines use approximately 1 gallon (4.4 litres) per hour per 20hp developed - Fuel consumption is proportional to the power developed.

 

 

Lets say that you need 5hp to charge the batteries.

If you have a 10hp engine you will still be using only 5hp.

If you have a 20hp engine you will still be using only 5hp

If you have a 30hp engine you will still be using only 5hp.

 

There may well be some slight additional losses with a bigger engine but it will be 'minimal'

 

This is why irrespective of length, weight, or engine size we all pretty much use 1.5 litre per hour to push out 'tin slugs' thru the water.

 

 

The formula to work out your 'theoretical' fuel consumption is :

 

Consumption = C x RPM3

Where C = Max Fuel Consumption at WOT / RPM3

(Take revs as ‘single figures’ ie 2000 rpm as 2.0, & 2600 rpm as 2.6)

 

As an example, my 143hp engines in the cruiser :

WOT = 2600 RPM

WOT = 143 HP

So, Fuel Consumption = 0.195 Litres/HP/Hour ( equates to about 4.2 litres per 20hp - pretty close to the r'ule of thumb' 4.4litres)

 

Example 2 : At a 5 knot cruise at 1500 rpm that is 57% of WOT

So : 57% x 57% x 57% = 19%

ie 19% of 143 hp = 27hp

 27hp @ 0.195 lt/hp/hr = 5.2 litres per hour.

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I know this is oft repeated but I'm not totally in agreement.

All diesel engines use approximately 1 gallon (4.4 litres) per hour per 20hp developed - Fuel consumption is proportional to the power developed.

 

 

Lets say that you need 5hp to charge the batteries.

If you have a 10hp engine you will still be using only 5hp.

If you have a 20hp engine you will still be using only 5hp

If you have a 30hp engine you will still be using only 5hp.

 

There may well be some slight additional losses with a bigger engine but it will be 'minimal'

 

This is why irrespective of length, weight, or engine size we all pretty much use 1.5 litre per hour to push out 'tin slugs' thru the water.

 

 

The formula to work out your 'theoretical' fuel consumption is :

 

Consumption = C x RPM3

Where C = Max Fuel Consumption at WOT / RPM3

(Take revs as ‘single figures’ ie 2000 rpm as 2.0, & 2600 rpm as 2.6)

 

As an example, my 143hp engines in the cruiser :

WOT = 2600 RPM

WOT = 143 HP

So, Fuel Consumption = 0.195 Litres/HP/Hour ( equates to about 4.2 litres per 20hp - pretty close to the r'ule of thumb' 4.4litres)

 

Example 2 : At a 5 knot cruise at 1500 rpm that is 57% of WOT

 

So : 57% x 57% x 57% = 19%

 

ie 19% of 143 hp = 27hp

 

 27hp @ 0.195 lt/hp/hr = 5.2 litres per hour.

 

 

 

 

Exactly, when i was commissioning diesel engined standby generators whose outputs ranged from 10kW to 3000kW, the fuel consumption was always around a half pint of diesel per kW of load.

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5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I know this is oft repeated but I'm not totally in agreement.

All diesel engines use approximately 1 gallon (4.4 litres) per hour per 20hp developed - Fuel consumption is proportional to the power developed.

 

 

Lets say that you need 5hp to charge the batteries.

If you have a 10hp engine you will still be using only 5hp.

If you have a 20hp engine you will still be using only 5hp

If you have a 30hp engine you will still be using only 5hp.

 

There may well be some slight additional losses with a bigger engine but it will be 'minimal'

 

This is why irrespective of length, weight, or engine size we all pretty much use 1.5 litre per hour to push out 'tin slugs' thru the water.

 

 

The formula to work out your 'theoretical' fuel consumption is :

 

Consumption = C x RPM3

Where C = Max Fuel Consumption at WOT / RPM3

(Take revs as ‘single figures’ ie 2000 rpm as 2.0, & 2600 rpm as 2.6)

 

As an example, my 143hp engines in the cruiser :

WOT = 2600 RPM

WOT = 143 HP

So, Fuel Consumption = 0.195 Litres/HP/Hour ( equates to about 4.2 litres per 20hp - pretty close to the r'ule of thumb' 4.4litres)

 

Example 2 : At a 5 knot cruise at 1500 rpm that is 57% of WOT

 

So : 57% x 57% x 57% = 19%

 

ie 19% of 143 hp = 27hp

 

 27hp @ 0.195 lt/hp/hr = 5.2 litres per hour.

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Exactly, when i was commissioning diesel engined standby generators whose outputs ranged from 10kW to 3000kW, the fuel consumption was always around a half pint of diesel per kW of load.

What you are missing though, is that for more than half the time you will be on electric, as long as you have solar as well it could be even longer. So their are big benefits to a diesel electric drive as long as its done properly and not something to try and get a 25% reduction in your license fee, the generator needs to be a dc one operating at the same voltage as the motor and the battery bank to keep things simple.

Edited by peterboat
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9 hours ago, peterboat said:

 

What you are missing though, is that for more than half the time you will be on electric, as long as you have solar as well it could be even longer. So their are big benefits to a diesel electric drive as long as its done properly and not something to try and get a 25% reduction in your license fee, the generator needs to be a dc one operating at the same voltage as the motor and the battery bank to keep things simple.

That is how the Fischer Panda hybrid system is configured with 48v motor and 48v DC diesel generator. 

Whereas the Beta system had a direct drive diesel with 48v alternator and 48v electric motor with belt drive to the prop shaft.

But is the Fischer Panda system ok on a river?

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9 hours ago, peterboat said:

 

What you are missing though, is that for more than half the time you will be on electric, as long as you have solar as well it could be even longer. So their are big benefits to a diesel electric drive as long as its done properly and not something to try and get a 25% reduction in your license fee, the generator needs to be a dc one operating at the same voltage as the motor and the battery bank to keep things simple.

 

Agreed, but not every boat (especially smaller narrowboats) has sufficient free roof space for a 1kW+ solar array, and thete are many boat owners who do not want bespoil the looks of their boat with a large solar array on the roof.

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3 hours ago, pearley said:

That is how the Fischer Panda hybrid system is configured with 48v motor and 48v DC diesel generator. 

Whereas the Beta system had a direct drive diesel with 48v alternator and 48v electric motor with belt drive to the prop shaft.

But is the Fischer Panda system ok on a river?

 

3 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Agreed, but not every boat (especially smaller narrowboats) has sufficient free roof space for a 1kW+ solar array, and thete are many boat owners who do not want bespoil the looks of their boat with a large solar array on the roof.

I think the Fischer Panda system qualifies as its a true electric drive, I would however want to see serious solar on the roof as well to allow the 25% discount, the idea is to be clean and as carbon free as possible. Its a lovely sunny day here and I have just looked at the Midnite controller  it was showing 26 amps at 60 volts, I have just switched 1200 watts to domestic, and 2500 to immersion heater for hot water perfik

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7 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I think the Fischer Panda system qualifies as its a true electric drive, I would however want to see serious solar on the roof as well to allow the 25% discount, the idea is to be clean and as carbon free as possible.

 

 

Totally agree, and this is the point being missed by CRT. It isn't electric drive per se that is good from an environmental point of view, it is electric drive from solar that is good.

 

Running a diesel to charge batteries to move the boat electrically is of no environmental benefit whatever and should not qualify for 'electric drive discount'.  The discount should be for the energy source being solar like Peter's, not for turning the blade with an electric motor powered by batteries charged up with diesel. 

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32 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 

I think the Fischer Panda system qualifies as its a true electric drive, I would however want to see serious solar on the roof as well to allow the 25% discount, the idea is to be clean and as carbon free as possible. Its a lovely sunny day here and I have just looked at the Midnite controller  it was showing 26 amps at 60 volts, I have just switched 1200 watts to domestic, and 2500 to immersion heater for hot water perfik

....bet it's not going to do that tomorrow.:)

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13 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

....bet it's not going to do that tomorrow.:)

True but tomorrow is another day? and as I have no intention of cruising in the rain I aint bothered!

In lots of ways my system would work very well in London maybe I should market it and upset the 15 - 20k for electric drive companies?

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  • 3 weeks later...

So, widebeams in inappropriate places part 256:

 

Below Shop Lock, Stockton, won’t go through the flat topped concrete bridge. Anyone who’s hung around there long enough knows the bridge comes in below water level; many have tried to go through breasted despite being warned but they knew better. Oh, how we laughed.

 

Usual mayhem with the pound above dropped off two feet, boats lying at angles on the bottom, water over the offside coping in the pound down to Jones’. Boat still below the bridge awaiting CRT engineer taking a look. And that’s before they try and get through the Blue Lias bridge.

 

Just stop it.

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3 hours ago, davidg said:

So, widebeams in inappropriate places part 256:

 

Below Shop Lock, Stockton, won’t go through the flat topped concrete bridge. Anyone who’s hung around there long enough knows the bridge comes in below water level; many have tried to go through breasted despite being warned but they knew better. Oh, how we laughed.

 

Usual mayhem with the pound above dropped off two feet, boats lying at angles on the bottom, water over the offside coping in the pound down to Jones’. Boat still below the bridge awaiting CRT engineer taking a look. And that’s before they try and get through the Blue Lias bridge.

 

Just stop it.

Any pictures?

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