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Where is the throttle? (Large Woolwich as new)


Laurence Hogg

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I always presumed that the small quadrant levers were replaced fairly early on as the connection to the engine was via cable which probably didn’t prove very robust in use.  Something I’ve cursed many times when I’ve bashed my head or back on the later-fitted speed wheels!

Paul

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34 minutes ago, Paul H said:

I always presumed that the small quadrant levers were replaced fairly early on as the connection to the engine was via cable which probably didn’t prove very robust in use.  Something I’ve cursed many times when I’ve bashed my head or back on the later-fitted speed wheels!

Paul

The second image above is alleged to be 1944, some seven or eight years after these boats were built.

Not surprisingly these quadrant levers appear to be in common with the small Woolwich motors. Personally I prefer wheels for both the engine speed and the gears :captain: 

Edited by pete harrison
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14 hours ago, pete harrison said:

The second image above is alleged to be 1944, some seven or eight years after these boats were built.

Not surprisingly these quadrant levers appear to be in common with the small Woolwich motors. Personally I prefer wheels for both the engine speed and the gears :captain: 

This boat appears to have had a replacement engine too, with the exhaust stack having been moved. Can't say i've seen one in that position in an early photo, any idea on which motor may be fitted?

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2 hours ago, BWM said:

This boat appears to have had a replacement engine too, with the exhaust stack having been moved. Can't say i've seen one in that position in an early photo, any idea on which motor may be fitted?

Well spotted!

If only 1944, I have never heard any suggestion of the boats having anything other than Nationals or RNs in them still.

I can't say I have spotted an exhaust in that position in other pictures.  It looks very vulnerable, and an odd choice of location.  I would not have thought the tall pipe very practical even with a full load on.

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18 hours ago, pete harrison said:

This photograph of BELFAST ? at Tyseley in 1944 shows the throttle a little clearer:

278354700_BARNES(possiblyBELFAST)atTyseley1944.jpg.5423dbc3e10dbabe772658265e8d4be5.jpg

 

Pete,

What is the origin of that photo, and the evidence that the motor is Belfast?

3 hours ago, BWM said:

This boat appears to have had a replacement engine too, with the exhaust stack having been moved. Can't say i've seen one in that position in an early photo, any idea on which motor may be fitted?

I have this photo of Belfast at Gayton junction.

1940203622_BelfastTurning2.jpg.525d8674ad950043a7bd2f3b604e1b1b.jpg

The photo is undated, but presumably post-nationalisation since the butty cloths are lettered 'British Waterways'. Belfast is still in GU livery, and still has a water cooled engine - presumably a National - as shown by the stream of cooling water. Although the picture is not that clear, it does look to me as if there may be a titch pipe in the same location as in the Tyseley photo.  

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51 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Pete,

What is the origin of that photo, and the evidence that the motor is Belfast?

I have this photo of Belfast at Gayton junction.

1940203622_BelfastTurning2.jpg.525d8674ad950043a7bd2f3b604e1b1b.jpg

The photo is undated, but presumably post-nationalisation since the butty cloths are lettered 'British Waterways'. Belfast is still in GU livery, and still has a water cooled engine - presumably a National - as shown by the stream of cooling water. Although the picture is not that clear, it does look to me as if there may be a titch pipe in the same location as in the Tyseley photo.  

It does appear to have a titch there, I wonder if the water exiting is from the cooling system as I thought the outlet was generally on the other side, with that one being the bilge outlet?

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I agree - the titch pipe in the post nationalisation photo does seem to be in a similar position to the tall pipe shown in the other photo.

Perhaps I have not paid enough attention to other photos, but it's not something I would immediately associate with an RN or a National.  It's hard to imagine the boat is fitted with a non standard engine, though.

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7 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

I agree - the titch pipe in the post nationalisation photo does seem to be in a similar position to the tall pipe shown in the other photo.

Perhaps I have not paid enough attention to other photos, but it's not something I would immediately associate with an RN or a National.  It's hard to imagine the boat is fitted with a non standard engine, though.

National would have exited just forward of the centre of the pigeon box, originally within the confines of the funnel I believe. The PD being forward of the position of the  (welded over) site of the right hand slide. Seems likely that there was an alternative engine fitted, otherwise it would be an absurd conversion?

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Pete H has previously advised me that in 1955 BELFAST was recorded as having the National 2DM which was originally fitted to DENEBOLA (BELFAST's original engine having been recorded in NUTFIELD at around the same time). British Waterways fitted a Petter PD2 in 1959/60, which in 1989 was replaced by the current Lister ST3.

So whilst this demonstrates that the Nationals were rotated around the fleet, it would seem unlikely that BELFAST would have had anything other than a National before 1959. 

The photo below from Willow Wren days shows the PD2 air cooling vent located on the plated in right hand slide, but the exhaust outlet still seems to be just behind it.

687422107_BelfastVirginis.jpg.4ce7a4147b380345aa688578ac109745.jpg

In the current arrangement the slides have been replaced by clumsy flipover hatches, the air vent has been moved and the exhaust now exits immediately in front of the right hand hatch. The roof itself has had numerous bits cut out and welded in, so it is difficult to determine the original layout, but there is a crudely plated over hole just behind the right hand hatch, which may well be the earlier exhaust location.PICT0047.JPG.4e3d93d9ed9a648a6215ddfcec9a7fe7.JPG

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5 hours ago, David Mack said:

Pete,

What is the origin of that photo, and the evidence that the motor is Belfast?

Interestingly, mine has a hole in the engine 'ole roof in roughly the position shown on Pete's photo. Since the only engines I know to have been fitted were a National (usual position), PD (usual position), SR3 (National hole), and AS2 (stbd side of pigeon box) I've always referred to it as the Bolinder hole when asked. I wonder whether the photo is Barrow or maybe more than one boat had the National  exhaust moved.

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I have seen numerous photographs of relocated exhaust positions when Nationals were still fitted including both ALDGATE and BADSEY.

BADSEY had its National exhaust moved to near the slide as in the image at Tyseley, and moved again for its PD2, and again for its P3. I think this is simply something that has not been noticed by 'the great and the good', although many of the images I have seen date to 'British Waterways' days (pre-PD2).

Edited by pete harrison
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6 hours ago, David Mack said:

Pete,

What is the origin of that photo, and the evidence that the motor is Belfast?

The photograph, like so many, is pinched off the Internet and is uncredited. The only potential evidence is a fleet list dated 14 September 1944 which pairs BARNES with BELFAST under the control of A. Wilson.

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A scan through some pics of GUCCC boats in later years  suggest that this exhaust position by the right hand slide was not especially unusual - Southall and Darley seem to be similarly inconvenienced. As no engine changes seem to have been documented, I wonder if the exhaust silencer arrangements were altered? It would seem to make the use of tall pipes difficult to say the least!

Paul

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1 minute ago, pete harrison said:

I have seen numerous photographs of relocated exhaust positions when Nationals were still fitted including both ALDGATE and BADSEY.

BADSEY had its National exhaust moved to near the slide as in the image at Tyseley, and moved again for its PD2, and again for its P3. Ithink this is simply something that has not been noticed by 'the great and the good', although many of the images I have seen date to 'British Waterways' days.

Fair enough, and if you and Paul have photographic evidence of several other boats, there can clearly be no dispute about it.

As you say, it is not something I at least have paid great attention to.

They must have had their reasons, I guess, but to me the relocated position looks less than ideal if you are going to run with a tall pipe.

It also looks close enough to the hatch, and hence to the engine room doors, that you might imagine it placed any silencer unnecessarily close to bare arms if you were to try climbing in and out.  (I think lagging is a recent idea, isn't it?).

Not a lot of thought always goes into these things, I think - when Willow Wren CTS put "Flamingo's" Lister in, they chose a location for the exhaust so close to the pigeon box that the flap that side could no longer be used properly.  We have since had it changed, so the boat has had at least 3 exhaust positions, but only 2 engine types.

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1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Pete H has previously advised me that in 1955 BELFAST was recorded as having the National 2DM which was originally fitted to DENEBOLA (BELFAST's original engine having been recorded in NUTFIELD at around the same time). British Waterways fitted a Petter PD2 in 1959/60, which in 1989 was replaced by the current Lister ST3.

So whilst this demonstrates that the Nationals were rotated around the fleet, it would seem unlikely that BELFAST would have had anything other than a National before 1959. 

The photo below from Willow Wren days shows the PD2 air cooling vent located on the plated in right hand slide, but the exhaust outlet still seems to be just behind it.

687422107_BelfastVirginis.jpg.4ce7a4147b380345aa688578ac109745.jpg

In the current arrangement the slides have been replaced by clumsy flipover hatches, the air vent has been moved and the exhaust now exits immediately in front of the right hand hatch. The roof itself has had numerous bits cut out and welded in, so it is difficult to determine the original layout, but there is a crudely plated over hole just behind the right hand hatch, which may well be the earlier exhaust location.PICT0047.JPG.4e3d93d9ed9a648a6215ddfcec9a7fe7.JPG

Regarding the PD2, the exhaust manifold could be mounted with the outlet facing forwards or backwards, the drawback with the latter arrangement being that it fouled the swing of the starting handle. I think the "Bilster" had/ may still have this arrangement, another being the "Cambourne" before that was taken out, ISTR in the 1980s

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23 minutes ago, pete harrison said:

The photograph, like so many, is pinched off the Internet and is uncredited. The only potential evidence is a fleet list dated 14 September 1944 which pairs BARNES with BELFAST under the control of A. Wilson.

Thanks Pete. Having looked back at the information you sent last year I wondered if that was the connection.

The photo appears in the Imperial War Museum collection at http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205201191 .

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In amongst this discussion I noticed back doors on both the motor and butty are very different today's practice with an attractive ( in my view) sculpted shape to the inset centre panel, rather than the current frequent practice of flat board straight edges and pads. I wonder if there was a shelf like a soap hole built in.

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we still have a leaver fitted with ours but we have it tucked under the left next to the ticket draw so dont catch it getting in and out, just wack my back on the gear wheel instead

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I think that the answer to the position of Belfast’s exhaust position is that on a National the exhaust ports are on the bottom side of the cylinder head, and the manifold is vaguely V shaped, ending with a horizontal flange to stbd of the centre of the heads. The exhaust pipe is threaded into a similar flange bolted to the manifold flange with two bolts. The pipe was then offset to the expansion box which was fitted to exit on the centreline just in front of the pigeon box. It would seem, from the number of boats altered, that some did not like the central exhaust, and all that needed to be done to alter it is to turn the exhaust pipe where it is threaded into the flange, put a new hole in the roof, and fit a collar. The exhaust could be altered to anywhere on the radius of the offset, rotating it approx 30 degrees to stbd would get it to the position shown on Belfast.

 

Regarding the water outlet the position shown on Belfast is exactly correct, the bilge outlet for a National is on the same side, just in front of the rear engine room bulkhead. RNs had outlets on opposite sides just in front of the engine room doors, cooling to stbd, bilge pump to port - I think

 

The paintwork on Belfast seems to show the wartime livery with a white border all round, I have seen this before on photographs, but not as common as the usual top line only.

 

Aquila has a lever throttle, initially I would have preferred a speedwheel but as Aquila has never had one I kept it, taking the view that if the boat still has original bits after 80 plus years it deserves to keep them. Now I have got used to it I find that I prefer it anyway.

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