Hallmark 70ft is a maybe

[70liveaboard]

Yes, we hope they sell and the new owners enjoy, whoever they are..

[70liveaboard]

We can't edit a post, so I'll just slip this in here.

My post #47 in this thread, we stated we thought it may have looked like an R&R shell.

 

After lots more poking around, we have found, in-fact, its a Dolphin shell, based on a R&R design (copy, if you like). So as near to a pure (early) Hallmark shell as possible really. Most all of their first 'inhouse' fabricators/welders etc, came from the Dolphin factory after it closed mid 94 IIRC. Many of those staff started working for Hallmark very soon after Dolphin closed, good move we think by HNL.

 

So yes, this is a Dolphin shell 99% certain, built to very high fabrication/welding standards (we would guess, based on the work Dolphin were involved in around the time) based on a R&R design, by the early inhouse Hallmark team, or those that would become the early team of fabricator/welders.

We expect it to be a very nice 'honest' shell (no filler). Fit out is different to first fit-out (apparently), so obviously over the years has changed quite a bit to suit the family that live/lived on her.

 

The price should be around 45-48 thousand we would say (todays market), but not more than 50 really. So we'll have to see if the seller will come down. The price could be high based on certification involved in the shell, not sure. But Dolphin were high end fabricator/welders, not boating per'sey. But work ethic, standards and certification.

 

Worth noting the 'new price' would have been below 40 thousand for this boat, complete. But Hallmark boats tend to increase in price over time and not decrease.

 

All the info we have at present on this.

Edited May 20, 2018 by 70liveaboard

[Parahandy]

On 06/05/2018 at 23:17, 70liveaboard said:

Nice to hear. He must be getting on in years now..

____

 

Pottering through the pages on the Duck, as you do when bored. We spotted this http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat.phtml?id=565119

this is almost certainly a Hallmark boat. We could be wrong, but that shell and parts of the interior look like one of the budget range they built.

Nice little boat though. Maybe a little too high on price, although new'ish engine could up it to their price.

That shell could well be a Dave Clarke, built for Hallmark. Or, perhaps a Hallmark shell.

 

So many boats on the Duck seem to mention the wrong builders.

 

If someone knows of 'Harmony' builders, they could perhaps correct us here.

35 ft and perfect for a Family , I find that simply laughable . I have this vision of Toilet Cassettes on the roof and the Steersman with a knotted Hanky on his head .

[70liveaboard]

1 minute ago, Parahandy said:

35 ft and perfect for a Family , I find that simply laughable . I have this vision of Toilet Cassettes on the roof and the Steersman with a knotted Hanky on his head .

Glad you highlighted this post, we were going to post regards this boat.

A holiday boat, this size of boat is ideal, why not ?

 

____

 

Now the post regarding this boat.

 

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat.phtml?id=565119

 

So earlier we mentioned this 35' 'Elfin', we have some more info about this too.

 

Its a Hallmark shell (inhouse built shell). The earlier inhouse 'budget' shells were a little better than the bought in ones. The other builders they used built nice shells too, but this has some detail not seen on bought in shells.

The drop (flat-bar) around the cabin (stern and bow), was a Hallmark thing, the bought in ones were finished with small round bar. However, the boat predates the date stated in the advert, as it is pre 96', so probably late 94-95' shell build, this doesn't mean it wasn't launched in 97' though. They had show-boats at their selling agents in the early launch of the budget range they had. This may have been one of those, that was later sold on to the public when it was finished with. The show craft were usually on hard standing for ease of viewing, without engines installed.

 

We know that the cabins were folded from early 96 onwards, therefore this one will have to be earlier than that, as its welded and not folded (along the top edge). This gave a slightly better cabin side appearance using longer sheets, although the rounded folded edge looked better roof wise. (this can be seen with photos already in this thread), and was much better time wise for production, we guess.

The 'semi round' fuel guard is missing that was put on later versions (1998 RCD). They did do the additional fuel guard prior to the 1998 reg, but we believe late 96' for that addition. The raise on the tank stern/top plate would have been enough (probably), but they added further protection against inward spillage.

Also the footstep to get back onboard if you fall into the water, looks to be missing too. So again, probably pre 97', many of the things were added earlier to pre-empt the new RCD regs coming 98', they were ahead of the new 'builder certification' european harmonisation.

 

A look into the engine well too. Makes us think this could have been using the steel paint used by Dolphin on their general fabrication/engineering work. They used a coating that was very good indeed, long lifetime but not great to paint over with lesser costing paint, apparently. They had to re-paint a couple of boats that peeled IIRC. This led to them originally changing, for the budget range, to a more expensive paint used on their other boats, top coat wise. But obviously as these boats were done to a strict price, they abandoned the Dolphin high quality protection and then started using standard grey primer or red oxide on the budget range, as do most builders.

We're not sure what that coating was called, that Dolphin used, we had it on our semi trad, in-fact our engine bay, looked identical to this one after almost 20yrs (just spots of rust), it really lasted and was still original when we sold it, still is, we believe. To us, this boat seems to have the original protective coat (engine bay), not been repainted during the years, not totally positive though.

[Parahandy]

I totally applaud your research , in 36 years on the cut I have seldom come across such in depth research , in fact its usually the preserve of the Historic Section and the Enthusiasts who Post on there .

Do you hope to conclude a Deal this Summer , apologies but I am catching up on the Thread as I go so to speak .

[70liveaboard]

12 minutes ago, Parahandy said:

I totally applaud your research , in 36 years on the cut I have seldom come across such in depth research , in fact its usually the preserve of the Historic Section and the Enthusiasts who Post on there .

Do you hope to conclude a Deal this Summer , apologies but I am catching up on the Thread as I go so to speak .

We've been around builders for, well too many years (50 or so). Its not hard to get info on older boats, if you know the people to go too, friends and fellow boaters that have been around a long time and of course, friends of theirs.

We're lucky here, as we have been put in contact with a fabricator (workshop foreman) that worked there, which is very handy after all these years. Lots of info to be had, in this builders case anyway. We knew a fair amount, but you can always do with more.

We don't listen to tickle tackle much, most boaters we know of long standing rarely do, we all know the 'towpath tel........' no, lets leave that there.

Better to know the 'real' back story about a boat, or indeed builder.

 

Edited May 20, 2018 by 70liveaboard

[Parahandy]

3 hours ago, 70liveaboard said:

We've been around builders for, well too many years (50 or so). Its not hard to get info on older boats, if you know the people to go too, friends and fellow boaters that have been around a long time and of course, friends of theirs.

We're lucky here, as we have been put in contact with a fabricator (workshop foreman) that worked there, which is very handy after all these years. Lots of info to be had, in this builders case anyway. We knew a fair amount, but you can always do with more.

We don't listen to tickle tackle much, most boaters we know of long standing rarely do, we all know the 'towpath tel........' no, lets leave that there.

Better to know the 'real' back story about a boat, or indeed builder.

 

Totally agree , when I read the Thread initially I thought its another one of those " looking for advice threads " which sometimes end abruptly and you never learn what the OP has ended up buying , instead its turned into a pretty informative Thread which you yourself have played no small part in . I have totally enjoyed it .

[70liveaboard]

1 hour ago, Parahandy said:

Totally agree , when I read the Thread initially I thought its another one of those " looking for advice threads " which sometimes end abruptly and you never learn what the OP has ended up buying , instead its turned into a pretty informative Thread which you yourself have played no small part in . I have totally enjoyed it .

Thank you.

__

 

Regards the possible purchase, things are still very much in the mix, waiting and seeing period (all been there at some stage).

At the price they're advertising.. no.. (we need 40's or lower really). But if they'll shift, which most do eventually, although its a long 'shift' ?. Then there is a strong possibility my grand-daughter and family will be canal dwellers of the 70' type (shabby with a clothes line out) .

They will be at some stage soon anyway, perhaps not shabby though, but probably ;).

Its just finding the best to suit they're needs and our pocket.

From a builder we know.

 

We missed out some time back on a 50' trad at Venetian for other things. Was a very nice boat from another builder & fitter we knew, small builder/fitter from way back. That fitout was on a Liverpool shell, Princess shell IIRC. Stan's name for his traditional shell. Harrington (semi) and Brunswick for the cruiser style. All nice shells.

Can't remember the boats name, may have been Albatross, not sure. Very nice boat inside and out.

Edited May 20, 2018 by 70liveaboard

[Ray T]

On 06/05/2018 at 23:17, 70liveaboard said:

 

Pottering through the pages on the Duck, as you do when bored. We spotted this http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat.phtml?id=565119

this is almost certainly a Hallmark boat.

Is that Top Gear's improved attempt at a "Damper Van?" 

 

Edited May 20, 2018 by Ray T

[rusty69]

14 minutes ago, Ray T said:

Is that Top Gear's improved attempt at a "Damper Van?" 

 

Probably against elfin safety! 

[andyberg]

Came across thes whist browsing anold mag..

[pig]

Thank you andyberg, they brought back many memories. Not least how the heck you put up the 2 folding beds into the space occupied by the deluxe cane furniture!

 

[70liveaboard]

Great ad. The later one is also really good, the Springer 'ish one, haven't seen that for many years now.

 

I'm sailing this weekend with the ex Senior Fabrication Foreman (Welsh end), so should have some good detail to add next week hopefully. I linked this thread to him and he has already come back with a lot of detail, also detail regards the photo's in the ad and the Ashmount (Flintshire) workshops.

Edited June 7, 2018 by 70liveaboard

[70liveaboard]

Reduced the price a little, however a better ad presentation and a credit to the owners I think.

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat.phtml?id=570119

 

Its still too high for us, can't see it being reduced much more.

Edited June 9, 2018 by 70liveaboard

[70liveaboard]

Thought we would put this pic in, seeing as this is the boat that the topic is about.

70ft Traditional built and fitted by Hallmark in 1994.

 

We've seen it and its a beautifully built boat, price is a little too high for us. We're sad.

 

Its still advertised, so I thought leaving the name on was o.k.

 

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, 70liveaboard said:

Its still advertised, so I thought leaving the name on was o.k.

I don’t understand this. Even if it wasn’t up for sale what’s the problem with showing the name? I’m always bemused when I see people post a picture of their car with the number plate obscured; do they drive down the road like that? If not then why obscure it in a photo?

[70liveaboard]

Based on our meeting and having a nice cruising day with the former senior fabrication workshop foreman (Welsh factory), recently.

 

This is a little compilation picture we put together of a Hallmark Budget 35ft Inlander range (currently for sale on the net). Just to give any readers in the future a brief idea of what their 'budget' boats were like. The 70ft above gives an idea of what else they built.

 

We think these budget ranges were incredible value based on the ones we saw back then (1990's), plus many photos shown to us and people we have spoken too over the years. They tend to hold their price in todays market (mid 2018) much better than other brands.

But the budget ranges were built to a price, but all the buyers back then would have known that, clearly.

 

We believe they had a choice of internal layouts for the budget ranges, but layout choices were very few, this is just one of those.

The spec of these boats were 'standard build': 6mm base, 5mm hull sides & 3mm cabin. All fabrication/welding on HNL built boats (in-house shells) was carried out by coded welders and all welds below waterline dye/pen checked. Plus a full water trial if the customer requested it.

It was the case that they would build to a higher spec if requested, but it was very rare for these budget ranges, most went out standard, according to our chat.

 

 

Anyway here it is, we are fans of Hallmark boats, we never owned any of the budget ranges, but had two of their standard/other (higher end) narrowboats. A semi trad (1st) followed by a fully trad.

We also looked at a 70ft fully trad to purchase again recently (post above), but the price is too high for our pockets at present.

 

here's the pic;

 

Budget ranges they had: Can also be seen in the ad pic in a previous post.

Inlander: size 30, 35 & 40ft (launched 1993/4, all cruiser sterns)

Dot: 25ft (launched 1995, reduced stern and bows, cruiser style)

Millennium: 45, 50 & 55ft (launched 1996, all cruiser sterns)

Tradline: 50ft-70ft (launched as a budget traditional range in 1998, few built, not sure of details, yet)

 

They built many boats (large number), other than these budget ranges above. These other boats included: cruiser style, semi trad and fully trad. Also including some wide beams. We have viewed many of their various boats over the years, apart from a wide beam, we have never seen any of those about/advertised. All we believe, have been very good quality for price.

 

Just some of the builders they used over the years for shell building prior to them building all shells in-house. Many, indeed most of these builders below were used prior to Hallmark becoming a Ltd company (1996) possibly before they were even called Hallmark, not sure.

Some builders were used after that. But ultimately they brought all building in-house under HNL mid 90's.

 

Maurice Hurst built their first boat (to sell) in 1984, so this points to around 17-18yrs selling/building narrowboats.

Following on from just the single shell from Hurst.

Liverpool Boats (numerous shells, various types)

John White (a number of shells, various types)

Alec Wroe (a few shells, various types) (not sure of the spelling for Alec or Alex, anyway he was based in Goole somewhere)

Paul Barber (single shell, fully trad)

Neil Hudson (single shell, fully trad)

Mike Heywood (numerous shells, various types mostly semi or trad)

PKB Narrowboats (numerous shells, various types inc early HNL budget ranges)

Clubline (a number of shells, cruisers mainly)

Dolphin Fabrication (a few shells, semi, trad and some HNL budget ranges)

Dave Clarke (numerous shells, various types but mostly HNL budget ranges)

There were also a few engineering companies used, but few details other than Dolphin are available. Not sure how many or what type of boats were built by these companies.

There would have been other builders too, but at present these are the names we have.

 

We had a great time learning about the owners of Hallmark, & indeed their building prior to HNL. There was some things we knew, but it was nice to learn much more. This is just a small part of what we talked about on what was, a great day.

 

There will be more to list later, but for now, that's it.

 

 

 

[70liveaboard]

We’ve been asked to just correct a couple of things in the post I put above.

The 40ft was in the Millennium range, not the Inlander. Also the Millennium range didn’t have a 55ft, they stopped at 50ft for the budget ranges. However, we have a friend that has a 55ft budget one, so a little confused there. We'll ask when they're back.

Hallmarks custom built boats (higher end) could be any size from 30ft upwards to 70ft for narrow, not sure regards wide beam..

 

 

Other things mentioned recently.

Hallmark had around 70 staff at finish, he remembers it as follows; 5 office, 1 on the road service vehicle, 2 in stock/stores and the rest split between fabrication and fit-out workshops. Wales & Newark.

 

One of the first 50ft Tradline boats went to Blackwater Meadow Marina, who were agents for Hallmark. That was the original owner, not any subsequent owners. The original owner's built the marina up, a very nice couple we met once.

There was said to be a fair number of Hallmark boats moored at Blackwater Meadow (way back), seems a mooring may have been an option, in the agents sales package. I think that may have been similar to the Yorkshire based agents too.

The agent based on the Lancaster canal, only took small boats 25-30ft.

The fourth agent was based down south somewhere, no details concerning them at all.

 

Edited July 1, 2018 by 70liveaboard

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

The 40ft was in the Millennium range,

We had a 1999 40foot Millenium boat.

Our mooring was at Whixall so the Llangollen was our 'local'.

 

 

After stripping out much of the inside, and refitting (to include a bath !!) it became a very nice boat.

 

 

Edited July 1, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[70liveaboard]

28 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

We had a 1999 40foot Millenium boat.

Our mooring was at Whixall so the Llangollen was our 'local'.

 

 

After stripping out much of the inside, and refitting (to include a bath !!) it became a very nice boat.

 

Yeah, they kept to the simplist of designs, three areas. Bedroom, bathroom and open front area for the galley/saloon. Its a very straight forward easy to put together option that more or less all budget/mid range boat builders have or do use.

I would think there wasn't much to strip out other than perhaps, bought in items i.e. units. The rest that we saw that was built in was the bed, shower, loo sink. Galley units were all bought in I think.

But if you took the galley out, the front would be empty on anything above a 40ft, surely. Unless you built it yourself, which I think was what it was all about really.

 

The smaller boats had more fitting than the larger ones, perhaps thats why it seems they did more of the larger boats, less internal work wise.

 

That looked a nice little boat from outside & inside. In your previous pics the saloon you shown was your own built in seating I assume.

 

I still love t&g, I've lost count the number of builders that used carpet to cover hull sides. But I don't mind that either, its added insulation I suppose.

 

Quick edit; You can see from the pic there, it was the folded cabin sections used for that 40ft.

Edited July 1, 2018 by 70liveaboard

[70liveaboard]

Another Hallmark 50'. Same standard fitout, only its been added too a little. But a nice boat selling for £14,000 more than it cost when new apparently. Market is very good at the moment (if your selling).

This one has been marked 'sale agreed', but it was worth putting into this thread as its a Hallmark 50' Millennium, make a good liveaboard.

 

 

[70liveaboard]

A rather nice 40ft from Hallmark. The engine bay and stern deck have really been kept clean, plus renewed.

Another Hallmark that has increased its price. I have been following Hallmarks for some years and have not seen one yet, that has sold for less than bought for new..

These are the builders that hold their prices well, Liverpool is much the same, D Clarke, John White, Jaris, PKB and many other mid range builders are the ones that most sensible boaters go for, if they want a return later when selling.

 

https://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/hallmark-40-cruiser-stern/618878

Edited September 17, 2019 by 70liveaboard

[The Welsh Cruiser]

I bought my 1998 Hallmark 35ft cruiser deck 6 1/2 years ago for £18K, I've lived on it since. Niggles: poor design at the rear with steps going down towards the back door, results in rainwater in the bilge. Welds where panels are joined left proud rather than ground flat. Rubbing strakes welded only at intervals rather than continuously, results in rust behind the strakes. Otherwise, I've been happy with it.

 

I bought it undocumented and without a survey, I still don't know what steel it was built from. The baseplate looked a bit thin when I had it out for blacking but that could just have been that the sacrificial overhang was worn. Does anyone know? 

[70liveaboard]

30 minutes ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

I bought my 1998 Hallmark 35ft cruiser deck 6 1/2 years ago for £18K, I've lived on it since. Niggles: poor design at the rear with steps going down towards the back door, results in rainwater in the bilge. Welds where panels are joined left proud rather than ground flat. Rubbing strakes welded only at intervals rather than continuously, results in rust behind the strakes. Otherwise, I've been happy with it.

 

I bought it undocumented and without a survey, I still don't know what steel it was built from. The baseplate looked a bit thin when I had it out for blacking but that could just have been that the sacrificial overhang was worn. Does anyone know? 

The welds were always left as they were (budget range) on earlier shells ie. pre 95/early 96'. Plus all rub strakes were fully welded top and intervals bottom. Earlier 'show' boats that went to agents, were built by contracted shell builders. Hallmark did initially have the boats fall very much inside 'budget', because the early boats were very cheap indeed, a 35' being under £16,000, so welded top strakes were as yours is. Later as prices increased due to demand, they altered their view on welding and fully welded top strakes and ground (to a degree elsewhere). Very few boats went out without fully welded top strakes, so that is what makes me think this is an early or ex show boat.

Don't forget they built usual narrowboats (higher prices), when I say usual, I mean non budget. The budget range was simply to get people afloat, that may not have been able to otherwise. That worked very well.

 

My thinking is, yours may be prior to 96', some show boats were kept at agents for some time, then brought back to tidy up and sell when they were renewed. That is not to say it's not a 98', it may well have been first user/launched in 98' (as new, because it was new, had just been standing on hard standing as a show boat prior, so not used).

 

Standard spec for the budget range:

6mm base

5mm hull sides

3mm cabin

[Alan de Enfield]

We had a 40 foot Hallmark 'Millenium'.

Took the wardrobe / cupboard out enlarged the bathroom and fitted a bath.

Kept it at Whixhall on the Llangollen

 

Sold it for more that we paid for it, and I saw it up for sale recently for considerably more than we sold it for.