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Strange Chassis Plate HIN/CIN code for a Liverpool Hull?


Charles Marlow

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Evening all,

I have a query about a second-hand boat that’s up for sale, which is described as being a 2008 Liverpool hull (self-fitted by the previous owner).

The vendor described the chassis plate HIN/CIN number as being of the form ‘CBBxxxxx’ (I’ve hidden the numbers with x’s to protect his privacy). 

This seems like a strange number for a HIN/CIN, to me. Also, the only MIC code I can find for ‘CBB’ is C B Boats Ltd?

If anyone has any ideas, I’d appreciate the feedback. Not sure I’m happy buying a boat with no RCD and a strange chassis number. Specifically, did Liverpool always mark their boats with a specific MIC and number format, or did they vary?

Thanks in advance.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Charles Marlow said:

Evening all,

I have a query about a second-hand boat that’s up for sale, which is described as being a 2008 Liverpool hull (self-fitted by the previous owner).

The vendor described the chassis plate HIN/CIN number as being of the form ‘CBBxxxxx’ (I’ve hidden the numbers with x’s to protect his privacy). 

This seems like a strange number for a HIN/CIN, to me. Also, the only MIC code I can find for ‘CBB’ is C B Boats Ltd?

If anyone has any ideas, I’d appreciate the feedback. Not sure I’m happy buying a boat with no RCD and a strange chassis number. Specifically, did Liverpool always mark their boats with a specific MIC and number format, or did they vary?

Thanks in advance.

 

 

I don't think you have a genuine HIN/VIN no. as it's in the wrong format. It will be found in more than one place on the boat.  Maybe the fitting out person put it on. The correct format is as follows :- 

 

 Recreational Craft Directive compliant vessels – 16thJune 1998 onward

Hull identification serial numbers should on all vessels built after 16th June 1998 appear in the international ISO format with fourteen characters. The prefix should be the country code followed by the MIC (Manufacturers code) – three letters. This is followed by the production model and serial number followed by the month of production and year of production or model year.

This is set out in this example:

GB –MPP1A01234F001

GB (country code) Great Britain – MPP (Manufacturers Code,name), 1A (Model)1234 (serial no.) F (month of build), 001 (year of manufacture).

This hull identification number should always appear on the transom permanently moulded or etched into the hull and occasionally on a permanently affixed plate. This is in the majority of cases to the starboard side of the transom.

A second plate is often affixed within the vessel in a location known only to the manufacturer and sometimes the police.

Some steel/aluminium vessels (often narrowboats) have this identification number stamped into one of the surfaces within the engine room.

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Maybe the "CBB" is actually "GBB" but not clearly stamped.  The HIN number will have been put on by the person fitting out the boat and completing it, not the shell builder who would have sold the shell with an Annexe III declaration.

Many people just get a HIN number from the RYA, but this is not mandatory.

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18 minutes ago, dor said:

Maybe the "CBB" is actually "GBB" but not clearly stamped.  The HIN number will have been put on by the person fitting out the boat and completing it, not the shell builder who would have sold the shell with an Annexe III declaration.

Many people just get a HIN number from the RYA, but this is not mandatory.

Maybe "CBB" is the initials of the fit out person ?

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I don't think it is an RCD HIN/CIN at all, for the following reasons: the format appears to be a yard number generated by CBB, and the hull shell builder would not provide a HIN/CIN because they are not the 'Builder' according to RCD definitions.  Annexe III suppliers do not provide HIN/CIN.

The vendor is either simply ignorant or is pretending he has completed the boat to RCD compliance.

Edited by Murflynn
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3 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

I don't think it is an RCD HIN/CIN at all, for the following reasons: the format appears to be a yard number generated by CBB, and the hull shell builder would not provide a HIN/CIN because they are not the 'Builder' according to RCD definitions.  Annexe III suppliers do not provide HIN/CIN.

The vendor is either simply ignorant or is pretending he has completed the boat to RCD compliance.

Agree with this.  Liverpool Boats used to use LIVxxxxx to identify their shells.

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On 25/04/2018 at 19:23, Charles Marlow said:

Evening all,

I have a query about a second-hand boat that’s up for sale, which is described as being a 2008 Liverpool hull (self-fitted by the previous owner).

The vendor described the chassis plate HIN/CIN number as being of the form ‘CBBxxxxx’ (I’ve hidden the numbers with x’s to protect his privacy). 

This seems like a strange number for a HIN/CIN, to me. Also, the only MIC code I can find for ‘CBB’ is C B Boats Ltd?

If anyone has any ideas, I’d appreciate the feedback. Not sure I’m happy buying a boat with no RCD and a strange chassis number. Specifically, did Liverpool always mark their boats with a specific MIC and number format, or did they vary?

Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

I'm puzzled. Why are you asking at all if you are not happy to buy a boat with no RCD?

Even if someone comes up with a credible explanation for the odd HIN, it still has no RCD.

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Why buy a boat with no RCD, if I’m concerned about RCDs? The easiest way to explain it is that the former isn’t a hard and fast rule, but a preference. So - if a boat has no certificate of conformity, manual, etc. then I naturally want to research whatever it does have in more detail. I’ve always found that the only way to understand something is to question everything that you don’t understand.

Thanks for all the feedback. In further discussions with the vendor we’ve confirmed that this number isn’t on the chassis plate as such, but on invoices from CBB. The chassis plate has an empty space where the HIN would normally be. 

  • Happy 1
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2 hours ago, Murflynn said:

I've never heard it called a 'chassis plate'.

if the boat has a CE plate with a blank HIN/CIN then the boat does not conform to the RCD and the fixing of the CE plate is fraudulous.

 

Nor have I. 

If you like the boat, buy it. If you don't like it enough to buy it regardless of the paperwork, then don't. The presence or otherwise of an RCD stiffycate is an irrelevance in the big plan of life. 

Nobody ever died from buying a boat with no RCD. 

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On 27/04/2018 at 21:25, Murflynn said:

if the boat has a CE plate with a blank HIN/CIN then the boat does not conform to the RCD and the fixing of the CE plate is fraudulous.

My CE plate does not show a HIN .  Does that make it ''fraudulous''.   The boat was built in 2003. 

20180427.jpg

 

 

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Neither does mine - its a shame when incorrect statement are made.

I would think that one of the biggest boat builders in Europe would 'do it right'.

 

From the RCD documentation :

Builder’s plate
- This is the plate which must be affixed to all RCD craft. It shall included:-
- Manufacturer’s name
- CE marking
- Boat design category

- Manufacturer’s maximum recommended load derived in accordance with the ESR excluding the weight of the contents of the fixed tanks when full

- Number of persons recommended by the manufacturer for which the boat was designed to carry when
under way
- The words “(Post-construction certificate)” if post construction assessed.

 

The CIN (formerly HIN) shall be marked on the boat (normally Starboard side Transom, and in a 'hidden place' only known by the manufacturer) NOT on the Builders plate.

 

 

CAM00263.jpg

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On 27/04/2018 at 21:25, Murflynn said:

I've never heard it called a 'chassis plate'.

if the boat has a CE plate with a blank HIN/CIN then the boat does not conform to the RCD and the fixing of the CE plate is fraudulous.

What a fabulous word. Fraudulous.

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58 minutes ago, Charles Marlow said:

Thanks a lot for the replies that showed examples of plates, and for the detailed quotations from the legislation. These were very helpful.

 

I’ve decided not to go ahead with this boat after all. Thanks for all the feedback.

 

- CM

Just for completeness ( and to look for when you do buy a boat) - irrespective of the Builders plate, you should receive in the 'ships papers' a copy of the certificate of conformity (which will include the CIN . HIN and all other information as a summary.

 

Here is one of mine as an example :

 

 

 

Lag380 CE declaration.pdf

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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On 29/04/2018 at 21:32, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

The CIN (formerly HIN) shall be marked on the boat (normally Starboard side Transom, and in a 'hidden place' only known by the manufacturer) NOT on the Builders plate.

 

 

 

so those cast brass CE plates are illegal?

 

 

narrowboat-rcd-05.jpg

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39 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

so those cast brass CE plates are illegal?

 

 

narrowboat-rcd-05.jpg

I have no idea if they are illegal, just that they do not exactly meet the requirement listed within the RCD. I guess that if the Transom is marked in the correct place, and there is a 'secret' location in addition to the plate then there would be no problem.

 

Article 18 of the RCD states :

 In the case of watercraft, the CE marking shall be affixed on the watercraft builder’s plate mounted separately from the watercraft identification number

 

Where 'your' plate may not conform to the RCD is that it does not have the 4-digit ID number following the CE mark (on mine it is CE0607, on the Sealine one it is CE0474)

 

I am guessing that this brass thing is a generic blank purchased from a Chandlers for 'home build'.

 

 

The error was suggesting that if the plate did not have the HIN / CIN number it was 'fraudulous' which it patently isn't.

That statement could affect the choices made by anyone viewing a boat that did not comply with your idea of what a Builders plate should contain.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I am guessing that this brass thing is a generic blank purchased from a Chandlers for 'home build'.

 

 

The error was suggesting that if the plate did not have the HIN / CIN number it was 'fraudulous' which it patently isn't.

That statement could affect the choices made by anyone viewing a boat that did not comply with your idea of what a Builders plate should contain.

agreed.   not fraudulous :wacko:   ............. but it would seem the boat in question does not have a CIN or an RCD.

 

I self-fitted a 2006 Liverpool shell and did my own extensive RCD compliance, so any comments I made were a reflection of what I had to comply with in 2007/8. 

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57 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

but it would seem the boat in question does not have a CIN or an RCD.

Agreed - but on a 10 year old boat does it matter ? (No)

 

It is a good bargaining tool if the buyer is more clued up than the seller but otherwise 'worthless'.

 

However - should an engine have been replaced recently, or been lengthened then it would require a RCD assessment, and, without it, it would be non-compliant.

(New RCD regulations on 'major craft conversions')

 

The definition of Major Craft Conversion:

‘major craft conversion’ means a conversion of a watercraft which changes the means of propulsion of the watercraft, involves a major engine modification, or alters the watercraft to such an extent that it may not meet the applicable essential safety and environmental requirements laid down in this Directive.

The new responsibility in the Directive:

Article 19

3. Any person placing on the market or putting into service a propulsion engine or a watercraft after a major modification or conversion thereof, or any person changing the intended purpose of a watercraft not covered by this Directive in a way that it falls under its scope, shall apply the procedure referred to in Article 23 before placing the product on the market or putting it into service.

The Applicable conformity assessment procedure that must be carried out:

Article 23 - Post-construction assessment

What does this mean?

What this now means is that any CE marked vessel that undergoes a Major Craft Conversion must undergo a post construction assessment before being placed back on the market or put into service (whichever is the earlier). The legal responsibility for this is placed on the person who is placing the vessel back on the market or putting it back into service after the works have been carried out.

 

For the sake of further discussion - I would postulate that over-plating a hull could potentially affect the 'safety' (stability, free-board etc) of the boat and may fall under the new 'post construction assessment regulations'.

How thinks you ?

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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