Carefreecruising boatshare...

[ditchcrawler]

22 minutes ago, haggis said:

You don't need to be near the boat to share the work in a self managed syndicate. You need a secretary and treasurer who can do the job from anywhere 

Regarding costs I know we saved a lot of money when we started self management 

For a start we didn't have to pay an organisation to do our booking charts etc and as we arranged directly with boatyards we got the work we wanted done and not what someone else decided 

For example we no longer needed to replace the engine every few years ?

Haggis 

I see Howard and I found the same! 

 

 

 

 

 

Spot on. You don't have to do the physical work on the boat your self, you have someone do the service when its due,not every 4th week or what ever although we did do oil and filter changes ourselves, well most of us and did handovers in all sorts of places from Gloucester Docks to the K&A with the boat based in Braunston Marina

 

49 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

This is our issue. We live in Norfolk so 3.5/4hrs away so wont be involved in maintenance etc hence why looking for a managed boat. The privately run syndicates that I've seen don't seem much less expensive than the managed ones that i can see - maybe i'm missing something?

I live in Lowestoft

[robtheplod]

Thanks for all the replies... I'm keen to join a syndicate who move the boat frequently as the point of doing this we'd want to see as much of the network as possible, including going on Rivers (thinking Avon) - I'm guessing private syndicates get more choice over their home base?  Carefreecruising only seem to have three bases which is a concern. BCBM seem to have more choice but seem more expensive and don't have many 1/24 shares (2 week), which we'd want to start off at...

No issues with boat maintenance such as changing oil/filters etc so if necessary would do.. but would not want to break it!

 

Edited April 28, 2018 by robtheplod

[ditchcrawler]

40 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

Thanks for all the replies... I'm keen to join a syndicate who move the boat frequently as the point of doing this we'd want to see as much of the network as possible, including going on Rivers (thinking Avon) - I'm guessing private syndicates get more choice over their home base?  Carefreecruising only seem to have three bases which is a concern. BCBM seem to have more choice but seem more expensive and don't have many 1/24 shares (2 week), which we'd want to start off at...

No issues with boat maintenance such as changing oil/filters etc so if necessary would do.. but would not want to break it!

 

I think that sums it up, its shared ownership but the management company the owners employ dictate where the owners can keep the boat 

[Cheshire cat]

Distance from the boat is an issue. The admin and fiance side of things takes little effort and is location independent I agree. You might appoint someone to do the maintenance for you but our experience was that a) you can't be sure the work has been done unless you inspect it and b) they start making decisions on the syndicates behalf much like the managed boat situation. 

If you don't have someone who is hands on you aren't managed you're crossing your fingers and hoping. There are good marinas/boatyards to berth and bad. Some marina owners see shared boats as cash cows.

 

[cuthound]

My advice, gleaned from 22 years of shared ownership, would be to ensure the boat is based at a yard that also hires boats.

This way they are used to doing quick repairs. Many private marinas look a nicer place to moor a boat, but are not used to repairing faults quickly.

[JJay]

19 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I think that sums it up, its shared ownership but the management company the owners employ dictate where the owners can keep the boat 

Not when we were with Carefree. After two years at their home base, we were asked if we wanted to move and various suggestions for general area were made by the owners. These were followed up by Carefree who came back with three possible marinas (Oxford/GU; N. Oxford; Worcs & Birmingham) and we voted on the one we wanted. Stayed there for two years (during which time we sold our share) and I think the boat has been based at three other marinas since.  They may only use three bases at the moment, but that's not to say there won't be others in the future. It depends what the owners want.

[robtheplod]

I've seen a few private share schemes which look good and are certainly better value (generally 4 weeks for the price of a 2 week on carefree). One worry though is they rely on a small dedicated team of shareholders who tend to have experience at repairing the boats etc. Concerned what occurs if these people decide to move on.... Am I being overly cautious??

[Alan B]

Our syndicate ( not Carefree ), holds an AGM and amongst general topics, where to base the boat is always discussed. It was decided to remain at our current base for one more year so undoubtedly we will move on in 2019. We are quite happy with the management company operation & their boats are based across a wide selection of marinas.

[howardang]

3 hours ago, robtheplod said:

I've seen a few private share schemes which look good and are certainly better value (generally 4 weeks for the price of a 2 week on carefree). One worry though is they rely on a small dedicated team of shareholders who tend to have experience at repairing the boats etc. Concerned what occurs if these people decide to move on.... Am I being overly cautious??

I think it is quite understandable to be cautious but I think you may be over worried. let me briefly explain how our share boat manages things. Firstly we are self managed (ex Ownership). we have a syndicate agreement which we all agree to which sets out how the boat runs, settles any issues etc. Like most syndicates we meet up each year in the autumn - firstly to enjoy a get together over a meal, but also to review how the year has gone and to draw up a list of work needed to be carried out over the winter (winter works in the parlance of share boating). We chose what new items we may like to buy for the boat. We also decide where we would like to be based for the coming year. As an example, our boat was new in  2008 and since then it has been based in 4 different marinas around the system. We have successfully had a partial repaint and also a total repaint over the period. We have a great group of owners who have varying degrees of expertise ranging from basic boating skills to slightly more knowledgeable. We have a small committee - a chairman, a secretary/booking secretary, a treasurer and a person who liaises with the marina about engineering matters. We have our own secure web site where we can exchange ideas, register work and any issues which need resolution and anything else that an owner may wish to raise. All done in a very friendly and relaxed way.  Over the winter the  winter work is carried out by our base engineer if possible (that is why we try to chose a base marina which has an engineering presence which often means a marina that has a hire fleet). One or more of the owners may visit the boat during the winter works period just to check that the work is being carried out and to report back on progress. 

 

During the boating season which is most of the year apart from the 4 weeks or so assigned to winter works) we have any running repairs carried out during the turn round period between owners when the boat is in the marina but individual owners are free do things like touching up the paintwork if needed but this is not compulsory and if you chose not that is also fine.  The system works well for us and i think you will find the majority of shared owners will say the same. Just bear in mind that shared boating is not time share which undoubtedly has its place. It is boat ownership.

 

The thing we find the most difficult when a new owner joins us - especially if their previous boating experience is through hiring - is getting across that they actually own the boat and need to think more like a boat owner rather than a holiday maker! It doesn't take long, however, and I can thoroughly recommend you getting involved, even if it is only a stepping stone to eventually owning a boat outright.

 

Good luck in what ever you decide.

 

Howard

[Big Bob W]

I think the fact a syndicate is self-managed is actually a good indication its a good bunch of members. If they were not capable, enthusiastic and well organised, I would expect them to be part of a managed setup instead.

 

Before we bought our own boat recently, we had a share for several years. Initially the boat was managed by BCBM. We decided to go self-managed after scrutinising how much we paid the management company each year. In the first year, we kept the monthly payments the same as when we were with BCBM, and within that year had built up a healthy contingency fund - enough for a replacement engine should it give up on us. That said, it was a good group of people who took pride in the boat.

 

I guess one difficulty is that until you join, you don't know for sure how good the syndicate is. A few years ago I was an active glider pilot. A large number of private gliders are also owned by syndicates. The difference there though was that you knew the other members (and they knew you!) before you made the decision to join.

 

I would certainly recommend shared ownership, and probably go for a private syndicate. It gives you a good insight into what's involved in boat ownership, maintenance and costs should you decide to purchase yourself in the future. As others have said, take a look at boatshare.co.uk .

[robtheplod]

Now looking at a boat that is managed, but has no contingency fund - members are invoiced as and when. The monthly cost is obviously much less but I'm trying to gain an insight into likely large costs of a 4 year old boat. How often are engines changed and what would the cost be roughly?? anything else i need to be on the lookout for? paint jobs etc??

[cuthound]

12 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

Now looking at a boat that is managed, but has no contingency fund - members are invoiced as and when. The monthly cost is obviously much less but I'm trying to gain an insight into likely large costs of a 4 year old boat. How often are engines changed and what would the cost be roughly?? anything else i need to be on the lookout for? paint jobs etc??

 

I had two share boats, from 1992-2001 & 2002-2013. Our shareboats averaged 1,000-1,200 hours per year.

 

The first had a Mitsubishi 1.4 engine which lasted 10,000 hours, and the second and Turkish built BMC 1.8 which was replaced at 13,500 hours. 

 

Both were replaced with Beta 43/PRM150 engine gearbox combinations. Price will depend on the out  work needed, new engine bearers and mounts, possibly increasing the size of the keel cooler.

 

Our 2013 replacement cost and round  £7,000, so perhaps budget for £8,000.

 

Those were the only major expenditures during our period of shared ownership, but the first boat had a PRM 120 gearbox, that was replaced with a reconditioned one after 5 years.

Edited May 6, 2018 by cuthound
Spillung

[ditchcrawler]

I would suggest that the asking price for the share should reflect this as  whoever is selling it has not paid towards the replacement of stuff he has partly worn out. ie. he could be bailing out for you to pay for a new engine, repaint and the bottom replated. I don't think it would rely be that bad but I hope you get my drift

[robtheplod]

21 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

I had two share boats, from 1992-2001 & 2002-2013. Our shareboats averaged 1,000-1,200 hours per year.

 

The first had a Mitsubishi 1.4 engine which lasted 10,000 hours, and the second and Turkish built BMC 1.8 which was replaced at 13,500 hours. 

 

Both were replaced with Beta 43/PRM150 engine gearbox combinations. Price will depend on the out  work needed, new engine bearers and mounts, possibly increasing the size of the keel cooler.

 

Our 2013 replacement cost and round  £7,000, so perhaps budget for £8,000.

 

Those were the only major expenditures during our period of shared ownership, but the first boat had a PRM 120 gearbox, that was replaced with a reconditioned one after 5 years.

thanks, so based on this the engines lasted approx. 10 years...  is 1,000/1,200 typical of a shareboat in your opinion?

48 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I would suggest that the asking price for the share should reflect this as  whoever is selling it has not paid towards the replacement of stuff he has partly worn out. ie. he could be bailing out for you to pay for a new engine, repaint and the bottom replated. I don't think it would rely be that bad but I hope you get my drift

excellent point many thanks!!!

[Dyertribe]

If you only want to cruise for two weeks a year and see a lot of the system, wouldn’t hiring be a better idea?

[cuthound]

10 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

thanks, so based on this the engines lasted approx. 10 years...  is 1,000/1,200 typical of a shareboat in your opinion?

excellent point many thanks!!!

 

Yes fairly typical,  boats get used even more than hire boats.

 

4 minutes ago, Dyertribe said:

If you only want to cruise for two weeks a year and see a lot of the system, wouldn’t hiring be a better idea?

 

Once you have bought the share, the annual running costs are typically a week or two's high season hiring, yet you typically get 4 weeks per annum. If you buy an older share, then depreciation is minimal.

[ditchcrawler]

The engine in Waterwitch  was still running sweet when we broke up the syndicate after I think about 8 years, later she was sold on to a member on here who I think lives on her on the Stort It was a Beta engine but we did kill a couple of gearboxes.

[robtheplod]

11 hours ago, Dyertribe said:

If you only want to cruise for two weeks a year and see a lot of the system, wouldn’t hiring be a better idea?

possibly, but £2000 a year on hire is steep. Plus the situation has changed a little and we'd like more time on a boat so now looking at 1/12 shares

[robtheplod]

Really interested in Aurora on BCBM - seems like a nice boat although heating seems different with it being Gas, but this seems included in monthly cost so maybe its better than Diesel which is chargeable?  No Winter Maintenance or Contingency but seems like a well kept boat - anyone have any experience with her (sounds wrong!) ?

 

Are BCBM ok to deal with?

[Alan de Enfield]

14 hours ago, robtheplod said:

Now looking at a boat that is managed, but has no contingency fund - members are invoiced as and when. The monthly cost is obviously much less but I'm trying to gain an insight into likely large costs of a 4 year old boat. How often are engines changed and what would the cost be roughly?? anything else i need to be on the lookout for? paint jobs etc??

The likely hood of a mechanical failure will be directly linked to :

1) The correct maintenance

2) The hours run.

 

1) The syndicate should clearly define, who does what, and at what hours, engine/gear box servicing is undertaken. An engine oil and filters change need only take an hour (My Lister LPWS4 needed oil changes at 100 hours, I would regularly (monthly) be doing the change and got it down to about 20-25 minutes in the morning before SWMBO emerged from her pit.)

Not only must someone be responsible for doing the work, someone needs to be responsible for ordering (well in advance) stock / stores so the work can be done 'on the fly'.

In my experience, those sort of jobs tend to get left until "I'll do it just before hand-over" and in the rush to 'hand-over' it never gets done.

 

I managed to totally ruin a very nice 4-cylinder Kubota engine in a large ride-on-mower. No servicing, no checking filters, oil etc - engine boiled the oil, smashed the crank bearings and was a write off.

 

2) High engine hours are not a problem per-se, high hours combined with lack of maintenance will result in disaster. My Lister had 10,000 hours on it when I sold it, and many boats have many more hours than that.

 

Painting - If you wish to keep the boat looking half-decent then it will need painting (anywhere between 5 and 10 years, depending on the quality of the previous work and how its been looked after) Cost will be anywhere between £2000 (DIY job) to upwards of £10,000 for a proper professional job. As a syndicate I would budget for painting at £1000pa.

 

I would suggest that if the syndicate is not organised enough to have a contingency account that you open up a bank account as a 'boat account' - you can transfer (say) £200 per month into it and build up your own emergency pool of cash. This could also serve as a savings account for when you buy another share, or even a 'whole boat'.

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, robtheplod said:

Really interested in Aurora on BCBM - seems like a nice boat although heating seems different with it being Gas, but this seems included in monthly cost so maybe its better than Diesel which is chargeable?  No Winter Maintenance or Contingency but seems like a well kept boat - anyone have any experience with her (sounds wrong!) ?

 

Are BCBM ok to deal with?

 

BCBM are OK to deal with.

 

My friend has a share for sale in Aurora, has he has recently bought a whole boat. She is a nice boat.

 

PM me If you want his contact details so you can ask him any relevant questions directly.

 

IIRC Aurora has a Lockgate diesel drip stove as well as CH.

Edited May 7, 2018 by cuthound
To add the last sentance

[robtheplod]

Well, we've taken the plunge and are now part of the Aurora Syndicate!   Very much look forward to meeting her! 

[ditchcrawler]

On 07/05/2018 at 07:47, robtheplod said:

Really interested in Aurora on BCBM - seems like a nice boat although heating seems different with it being Gas, but this seems included in monthly cost so maybe its better than Diesel which is chargeable?  No Winter Maintenance or Contingency but seems like a well kept boat - anyone have any experience with her (sounds wrong!) ?

 

Are BCBM ok to deal with?

But you will still be paying for the gas as well as a share of what everyone else uses

[cuthound]

7 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

Well, we've taken the plunge and are now part of the Aurora Syndicate!   Very much look forward to meeting her! 

 

Congratulations, welcome to the wonderful world of boating.

[cuthound]

14 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

But you will still be paying for the gas as well as a share of what everyone else uses

 

True, and also unusual for a shareboat scheme. However gas expenditure is only a  tiny percentage of a years overall shareboating costs.