Passing Sailing Boats on the Severn

[Alway Swilby]

We came down the River Severn from Worcester to Gloucester today. A mile or so below Upper Lode Lock there were about 15 small sailing boats generally milling around and tacking to and fro across the width of the river. I know the old rule about power giving way to sail but I was travelling downstream on yellow boards and couldn't really stop. I had to zig zag between them and one came really quite close within about a foot and I had to put on lots of power and move my stern away from him to avoid a collision. What is the etiquette here? Should I have made more effort to stop (stemming the current in reverse) and wait for a suitable gap, or should I just have done what I did slowing to tickover and worked my way through. Or should they have made an effort to clear a path for me?

[Detling]

Colregs you give way even if hard but they have a duty to avoid a collision even though they have right of way. If you do your best they will appreciate it. If they are racing it helps to try to avoid the first few and disturb the tail end but of course the tail end would not agree as they really want to be at the front. The only other thing is commercial always have right of way over pleasure. The rowers on the thames and severn can be really awkward and are probably well connected.

[Keeping Up]

Although if you are a full length narrow boat you can possibly make use of the rule that says "A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway." The problem is that the sailors will almost certainly not be familiar with that rule.

[Sea Dog]

Hoist 2 black balls and just do the best you can!

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Hoist 2 black balls and just do the best you can!

Those that will allow you to do that are getting thin on the ground.

[OldGoat]

Rather than try to make progress in the centre of the river - thereby making the dinghies lose way by avoiding you, how's about keeping to the starboard side of the channel? That shouldn't impede a good skipper as he can put in an early or later tack to avoid you without losing much way.

Be prepared to shout "ahead" or "water" if you think they are not taking sufficient care.   

I was travelling downstream on yellow boards and couldn't really stop. That's not a good reason - if you can't control your vessel. you shouldn't be out when warning boards are displayed - that's the reason for them, not an excuse. 

[Chewbacka]

Colregs isn’t power gives way to sail but more manoeuvrable gives way to less.  So a little sailing boat also has a duty to work around you as well .  On the River Severn I progress slowly but well to the right and so far without incident.  They are racing so won’t stop and wait.

Edited April 22, 2018 by Chewbacka

[Phil Ambrose]

47 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Colregs isn’t power gives way to sail but more manoeuvrable gives way to less.  So a little sailing boat also has a duty to work around you as well .  On the River Severn I progress slowly but well to the right and so far without incident.  They are racing so won’t stop and wait.

This was the same plan I used on the Broads, work well most of the time except the occasion a whole bunch of yotties racing came straight at me despite me being only 2 or 3 metres from the right bank. One brave soul tried to pass me between my boat and the quay headed bank. The result was he came to an abrupt halt and then tried to blame me! I gave him some advice concerning sex and travel and continued on my way.

Phil 

[rusty69]

Yes, I recall thinking the same when we went through, although I did my best to give way, as they may have been "racing"

Edited April 22, 2018 by rusty69

[Alway Swilby]

2 hours ago, OldGoat said:

Rather than try to make progress in the centre of the river - thereby making the dinghies lose way by avoiding you, how's about keeping to the starboard side of the channel? That shouldn't impede a good skipper as he can put in an early or later tack to avoid you without losing much way.

Be prepared to shout "ahead" or "water" if you think they are not taking sufficient care.   

I was travelling downstream on yellow boards and couldn't really stop. That's not a good reason - if you can't control your vessel. you shouldn't be out when warning boards are displayed - that's the reason for them, not an excuse. 

I did keep well to the starboard, probably about 2 boat widths from the bank and was on tickover just so I had a bit of steerage.  The chap with whom there was nearly a collision was holding onto the moorings outside the sailing club HQ and let go just as my bows got abreast of him. 

Point taken about the yellow boards. I probably could have stopped but how long would I have had to stem the current in reverse gear before they cleared a way through? Some time I suspect. 

Edited April 22, 2018 by Alway Swilby

[Chewbacka]

2 hours ago, OldGoat said:

Rather than try to make progress in the centre of the river - thereby making the dinghies lose way by avoiding you, how's about keeping to the starboard side of the channel? That shouldn't impede a good skipper as he can put in an early or later tack to avoid you without losing much way.

Be prepared to shout "ahead" or "water" if you think they are not taking sufficient care.   

I was travelling downstream on yellow boards and couldn't really stop. That's not a good reason - if you can't control your vessel. you shouldn't be out when warning boards are displayed - that's the reason for them, not an excuse. 

It’s acceptable to navigate on yellow boards and if going downstream then other boats should be aware that you are travelling with the current and should make allowance so as to minimise the risk of collision, that said, you should also be prepared to slow down to give other boats time to keep to their side of the channel.

[furnessvale]

Do yellow boards only apply to powered craft then?  I thought unpowered craft should avoid moving under yellow boards?

Instead we seem to be talking as if powered boats are in the wrong moving but unpowered boats are free to do what they want.

George

[Chewbacka]

Coloured boards apply to all craft.  They are not mandatory, but for example on the River Severn, if crt judge conditions as unsafe they can not stop you navigating, but they will close the locks.

[furnessvale]

1 minute ago, Chewbacka said:

Coloured boards apply to all craft.  They are not mandatory, but for example on the River Severn, if crt judge conditions as unsafe they can not stop you navigating, but they will close the locks.

Exactly!  So in an incident between a powered and an unpowered craft under such conditions, no one can be claiming the moral high ground.

George

[David Mack]

4 hours ago, Alway Swilby said:

I had to zig zag between them and one came really quite close within about a foot and I had to put on lots of power and move my stern away from him to avoid a collision.

That really doesn't help. They are much more manouevrable than you are, so better to stick to a steady course and speed, then they can predict where you are going to be and take appropriate avoiding action.

[Chewbacka]

13 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

Exactly!  So in an incident between a powered and an unpowered craft under such conditions, no one can be claiming the moral high ground.

George

Colregs do make clear which vessel has ‘right of way’ so in a collision, get the colregs out and see who has failed to take avoiding action.

[Dr Bob]

4 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

Hoist 2 black balls and just do the best you can!

As Sea dog says, 2 black balls - restricted ability to manouvre- and a good horn. Can't see how that doesn't fit Colregs.

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

As Sea dog says, 2 black balls - restricted ability to manouvre- and a good horn. Can't see how that doesn't fit Colregs.

Two black balls and a good horn. Mmmmmmm

[Sea Dog]

17 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Colregs do make clear which vessel has ‘right of way’ so...

Actually, as you probably know Chewy but others may not, they nominate the "stand on vessel" who should maintain his course and speed so the other vessel can see how best to manoeuvre to avoid him.  This is far better than giving "right of way" as the highway code does, since it doesn't encourage one vessel to have an "I'm in the right if there's a crash" attitude, but instead confers joint responsibility to avoid a collision to both vessels. 

10 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Two black balls and a good horn. Mmmmmmm

At night they would glow red!

[LadyG]

Ball, diamond, ball surely? [red, white, red at night]

Edited April 23, 2018 by LadyG

[carlt]

7 hours ago, rusty69 said:

Two black balls and a good horn. Mmmmmmm

A common naval affliction.

[Alan de Enfield]

Back to the 'old debate' of "do Colregs apply on rivers ?"

Colregs : Rule 1 (Application)

 

(a) These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels.

(b) Nothing in these Rules shall interfere with the operation of special rules made by an appropriate authority for roadsteads, harbours, rivers, lakes or inland waterways connected with the high seas and navigable by seagoing vessels. Such special rules shall conform as closely as possible to these Rules.

[rusty69]

23 minutes ago, carlt said:

A common naval affliction.

And why mrsmelly and seadog walk funny back from the pub☠️

Ooh new emojis

Edited April 23, 2018 by rusty69

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

And why mrsmelly and seadog ealk funny back from the pub☠️

Ooh new emojis

Is that what happens when you've been to the pub ?

A bit of 'ealking' never did anyone any harm (as long as it is between 2 consenting adults over the age of 21)

[rusty69]

3 hours ago, LadyG said:

Ball, diamond, ball surely? [red, white, red at night]

Yep. We definitely carry those on our narrowboat, and being a dinghy sailor too, would certainly recognise them on an approaching vessel. ?

33 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Is that what happens when you've been to the pub ?

A bit of 'ealking' never did anyone any harm (as long as it is between 2 consenting adults over the age of 21)

Hey. Gis a break, its early, my eyes are dim i cannot see, this Android phone will be the death of me. 

Edited April 23, 2018 by rusty69