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rookie question - propane tanks


Wittenham

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hi, in my recently acquired residential butty, gas is supplied by two propane tanks connected together.  Very rookie question coming... does that connector drain both tanks simultaneously, or first one, than automatically switches over to the other?  I think the second option would be more useful.  [Both tanks feel too light to be able to tell.]

Finally, is there some kind of device that will indicate how much gas is in a tank?

thanks

 

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6 minutes ago, Wittenham said:

hi, in my recently acquired residential butty, gas is supplied by two propane tanks connected together.  Very rookie question coming... does that connector drain both tanks simultaneously, or first one, than automatically switches over to the other?  I think the second option would be more useful.  [Both tanks feel too light to be able to tell.]

Finally, is there some kind of device that will indicate how much gas is in a tank?

thanks

 

In your situation, simplicity is your friend in my opinion. One connection, 2 tanks. Use one bottle in the knowledge that you have a full spare. When the first bottle is empty, change to the second and there's your indication to replace the now empty first. Repeat. Nothing to go wrong, no need to know the exact level as you'll always have at least one full bottle.

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4 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

In your situation, simplicity is your friend in my opinion. One connection, 2 tanks. Use one bottle in the knowledge that you have a full spare. When the first bottle is empty, change to the second and there's your indication to replace the now empty first. Repeat. Nothing to go wrong, no need to know the exact level as you'll always have at least one full bottle.

Thanks SD, and I should have added:  there is a third bottle, which I have had filled, ready to add it in when the current tanks drain.

 

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Gas bottles are usually replaced rather than refilled, they then get re-filled at the "gas factory". Are your bottles red 13kg Calor? that is the most common.

Lowest tech arrangement is to manually move the hose and regulator between bottles when one gets empty. Next up is to have two bottles connected to a sort of gas switch, when one getr empty then turn the switch and replace the empty one when convenient. If the two really are directly connected then that's not so good as both will get empty at the same time, and not sure about BSS status either.  Note that they use a "backwards" thread, this catches out a lot of newbies.

...............Dave

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You can get a regulator fitted to a twin twin inlet wall block and nothing else. This type will drain both bottles if both bottles are left turned on (see Sea Dog's post above).

You can also get a regulator combined with an automatic change over valve. These will only drain one bottle at a time and then automatically change to the other bottle. At that point it will display a red flag in a little window so you know its time to change the empty bottle. You also twist a knob to point to the full bottle and the red flag turns white.  The advantage is that you do not need to go outside in inclement weather or the dark to turn the other bottle on.

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1 hour ago, pearley said:

If you have really refilled a gas bottle then you need to ensure it is a bottle acceptable under BSS. 

my error, and it pays to be precise re:  saftety.  I did take the empty to a shop who gave me a red 23kg one in return.

I have now had a closer look at the gauges, the situation is as Tony Brooks described it.  Thanks all, and please expect more rookie questions as this goes along.  Great resource, this forum.

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

You can also get a regulator combined with an automatic change over valve. These will only drain one bottle at a time and then automatically change to the other bottle. At that point it will display a red flag in a little window so you know its time to change the empty bottle. You also twist a knob to point to the full bottle and the red flag turns white.  The advantage is that you do not need to go outside in inclement weather or the dark to turn the other bottle on.

The downside to auto changeover is that if you don't look at it you can drain both bottles then run out of gas.  Usually when in the shower if you have a gas water heater.

Don't ask me how I know this!

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12 minutes ago, Wittenham said:

my error, and it pays to be precise re:  saftety.  I did take the empty to a shop who gave me a red 23kg one in return.

I have now had a closer look at the gauges, the situation is as Tony Brooks described it.  Thanks all, and please expect more rookie questions as this goes along.  Great resource, this forum.

The 'normal size bottle for boats / caravans / why is 13Kg - If yours is the larger size  19Kg (not usual) then you must be a weight lifter 'cos they're heavy. Not being pedantic but the larger size are not always available.

I have had two auto changeover valves and neither of them were 'reliable'. Either they didn't change over when one was empty or they changed when there was plenty of gas left. I now changeover manually - and that reminds me to buy a spare - when convenient to me and not when we're run our completely... 

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3 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

The downside to auto changeover is that if you don't look at it you can drain both bottles then run out of gas.  Usually when in the shower if you have a gas water heater.

Don't ask me how I know this!

That is why I operate mine with one bottle valved off and a label to remind me which one is in use between cruises. :D

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6 hours ago, Wittenham said:

Thanks SD, and I should have added:  there is a third bottle, which I have had filled, ready to add it in when the current tanks drain.

 

Ah, then I presume you use a high volume of gas, perhaps for central heating which was once very popular but is now quite an expensive way to heat a boat. I can see why the frequent changeover of bottles make automatic changeover valves attractive, but the disadvantages have been pointed out.  For most of us who only use gas for cooking, each bottle lasts months so the simple method works well. It might be worth seeing how quickly you use a bottle before deciding to review your set up.

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18 minutes ago, cuthound said:

That is why I operate mine with one bottle valved off and a label to remind me which one is in use between cruises. :D

I think this is the preferred option even if you do have an automatic changeover, also safer than leaving both open in the event of a catastrophe. The weight of the empty cylinder varies considerably, with the old ones with bolted on top handles/guards adding several kilos to a 13kg bottle.

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The calor spec for the 13Kg Propane bottles is:

PRODUCT CODE 210130
MANUFACTURER Calor
CYLINDER TYPE Propane
CYLINDER USAGE Light commercial use
CYLINDER COLOUR Red
CAPACITY 13kg
HEIGHT 580mm
DIAMETER 315mm
TARE WEIGHT (EMPTY) 12.7-21.9kg
GROSS WEIGHT (FULL) 25-35kg
REC. OFFTAKE (APPROX.)  15Kw
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The calor return terms are below.  

Note that the original agreement gave them (some) right of entry to your property:

In any case of wilful damage or breach of this Agreement the Company may repossess Cylinder(s) immediately and the User by entering into this Agreement irrevocably authorises the Company or their agent to enter on the User’s property for these purposes and in that event this Agreement is terminated. The Company may charge the User for loss of use of a Cylinder, in the event of loss or damage to the Cylinder but this charge shall not give the User any rights in the Cylinder. 

Note that they call for you to present the original agreement that you signed when you got your first bottle and paid the bottle charge.  Now who holds a copy of that?

This Agreement remains in force for 50 years. The User may terminate this Agreement by returning the Cylinder(s) in good order to a CALOR Outlet nominated for this purpose and shall be entitled on presenting this Agreement to a refund of a proportion of the Refill Agreement Charge as follows:

1 year old 70% refund
2 year old 60% refund
3 year old 50% refund
4 year old 45% refund
5 year old 40% refund
6 year old 35% refund
7 years old 30% refund
Over 7 years 25% refund

 

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35 minutes ago, BWM said:

I think this is the preferred option even if you do have an automatic changeover, also safer than leaving both open in the event of a catastrophe. The weight of the empty cylinder varies considerably, with the old ones with bolted on top handles/guards adding several kilos to a 13kg bottle.

You could turn off the bottles after boiling each kettle, that would be (?) safer still. Crossing the road etc.

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21 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

You could turn off the bottles after boiling each kettle, that would be (?) safer still. Crossing the road etc.

It would have very little effect on the knowledge that one of your cylinders was full. Having been involved in evacuating 47kg propane cylinders from a temporary type classroom, after a squirrel had eaten through the flexible pipework on a four cylinder changeover set up, my thinking is based on experience. 

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6 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

The downside to auto changeover is that if you don't look at it you can drain both bottles then run out of gas.  Usually when in the shower if you have a gas water heater.

Don't ask me how I know this!

Tell me. How do you know this?

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Well we have an automatic changeover which has always worked fine. Yes you do have to check for a red flag occasionally but is that too difficult? Same as you check you have enough diesel and water (and food and booze!). If checking for a red flag is too complex I’d recommend a care home.

Gas cylinder contents is best measured by weighing, but you do need to know the starting/ full weight as the empty weight varies as mentioned. When the liquid “gas” turns to gas “gas” it absorbs heat and thus cools the cylinder. So whilst you are using gas you can determine the level of the liquid by the temperature of the cylinder wall, the more rapidly you are using gas, the easier. You can get thermally sensitive strips to attach to the side of the cylinder the show the level of remaining liquid (when the gas is actually being used).

But really, just lifting the cylinder is a fairly good way to get the general idea how much gas is left.

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13 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

And the cylinder take weight is on the ally disc around the bottle neck.  It’ not obvious as it’s in pounds and ounces.

Didn't know that, useful as we have a gas winch at the gliding club and we weigh the cylinders to see how many more launches we can do, but with the empty weight varying its not precise. Well, unless you know the empty weight of course! These cylinders are the fork lift truck type, used on their side and dispensing liquid "gas" but hopefully have the same disc.

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12 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Well we have an automatic changeover which has always worked fine. Yes you do have to check for a red flag occasionally but is that too difficult? Same as you check you have enough diesel and water (and food and booze!). If checking for a red flag is too complex I’d recommend a care home.

A good point. Very easy, and you easily could set routine reminders on your phone or calendar or something, then on one of the regular occasions you visit the gas locker you're almost certain to spot red flag before the gas runs out.  Crikey, that's now  almost as easy as changing to the other bottle when the gas starts to fade...  (Perhaps drier, however, and maybe not so dark!) :)

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