Numax XDT30MF Tubular Plate batteries

[Richard10002]

Any thoughts on these at almost £200 each delivered. Tubular plate technology seems to suggest many more cycles to a greater depth of charge than the norm. However, I guess if I only bought 2 and use 100Ah per day, I couldn't leave it 2 days before recharging, so not much better off than at present with my 3 year old sulphated Trojan T105s.

https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/numax/xdt30mf/

Edited April 18, 2018 by Richard10002

[Sea Dog]

If T105s have only lasted 3 years in your circumstances, and with your usage profile and charging regime/ability, I'd be wondering whether they or these are worth the extra expense over standard 'disposable' leisure batteries at half the cost.  (You may already have wondered what I'm wondering and have the answer!) 

[mrsmelly]

56 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

If T105s have only lasted 3 years in your circumstances, and with your usage profile and charging regime/ability, I'd be wondering whether they or these are worth the extra expense over standard 'disposable' leisure batteries at half the cost.  (You may already have wondered what I'm wondering and have the answer!) 

Yep. Cheap, two years no mollycoddling bin, replace amen.

[MtB]

11 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Yep. Cheap, two years no mollycoddling bin, replace amen.

 

Not a very environmentally sound policy this though, is it?

[Sea Dog]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Not a very environmentally sound policy this though, is it?

He put "replace", but he meant "recycle" I should think...

[MtB]

Just now, Sea Dog said:

He put "replace", but he meant "recycle" I should think...

 

Recycling is a poor substitute for using the earth's resources frugally and considerately in the first place. Recycling LA batteries wastes huge amounts of energy shipping them back to China, melting them down and making new batteries out of the scrap. 

Far better to mollycoddle them properly in the first place. 

The term 'recycle' is little more than a sop to middle class guilt about the massive natural resources we waste.

[cuthound]

Tubular plates are the pinnacle of lead acid technology, but unless you really look after them they can be damaged just as quickly as cheap ones.

Get on top of your charging regime first before even considering them.

[Sea Dog]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

The term 'recycle' is little more than a sop to middle class guilt about the massive natural resources we waste.

There may be much truth in what you say, but why "middle class" guilt? Is it because you feel they're the only ones contributing to the problem or that they're the only ones who take the time to feel guilty about it?

[WotEver]

27 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

There may be much truth in what you say, but why "middle class" guilt? Is it because you feel they're the only ones contributing to the problem or that they're the only ones who take the time to feel guilty about it?

I was wondering about that. Is it based on the premis that the upper class consider themselves too important to be bothered about such things and the lower class just don’t give a stuff?

 

[MtB]

54 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I was wondering about that. Is it based on the premis that the upper class consider themselves too important to be bothered about such things and the lower class just don’t give a stuff?

 

 

Broadly speaking, this!

With some notable exceptions, it is mostly my middle class customers who sort out their rubbish into five different bins, buy the latest 'low emission' car every two years, carefully put food waste on the compost heap and constantly metaphorically hand-wring about the coral reef off Australia getting bleached, or something like that.

The lower orders are too busy trying to survive to worry much about conservation and the upper classes have staff to do the worrying for them. 

[Richard10002]

4 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

If T105s have only lasted 3 years in your circumstances, and with your usage profile and charging regime/ability, I'd be wondering whether they or these are worth the extra expense over standard 'disposable' leisure batteries at half the cost.  (You may already have wondered what I'm wondering and have the answer!) 

Between me and MtB I think we have learned that, as well as not letting our SoC fall below 50%, we need to charge to 100% daily, (and no longer than every 2nd day). 

I used to follow the 50% SoC role fairly religiously but, if this meant the batteries lasted a week before needing charging, that's what happened. Hence the quick sulphation.

I now charge to 100% every day if possible, and definitely no longer than every 2nd day. I have also increased my solar to 500W with a 40A MPPT controller so, on days like today, I may get a full charge without running the genny or the engine. When I leave the boat for a few days, (usually Sunday afternoon to Wednesday evening, I charge to 100% before leaving, and the solar obviously trickles to keep them topped up).

So I think I've got my charging regime up to scratch... in fact, I have no idea what more I can do to improve it.

I dont want to spend £600 on 4 new Trojan T105s. The current ones cost me £400 in May 3 years ago and that's about the most i want to spend, approx..

Given that I can use between about 70Ah and 100Ah per day, and I'd like a couple of days between charges now and then, I like the idea of 3 x 110Ah normal sized 12v batteries, with the option to add a 4th if i find it isnt enough.

The more I look at it, my head keeps telling me to buy 3 x Numax XV31MF for £90 each, and see how it goes

https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/numax/xv31mf/

 

3 hours ago, cuthound said:

Tubular plates are the pinnacle of lead acid technology, but unless you really look after them they can be damaged just as quickly as cheap ones.

Get on top of your charging regime first before even considering them.

See #11

I see that I can have a Rolls 125Ah battery for under £200 delivered if I want:

https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/rolls/s160/?gclid=Cj0KCQjw_ODWBRCTARIsAE2_EvXShcr-dBLqGaCrsAI4gBcSA0Io1a2qDkSDrE1VFhgom6QAbEv0YAYaAk7rEALw_wcB

[dmr]

1 hour ago, Richard10002 said:

Between me and MtB I think we have learned that, as well as not letting our SoC fall below 50%, we need to charge to 100% daily, (and no longer than every 2nd day). 

I used to follow the 50% SoC role fairly religiously but, if this meant the batteries lasted a week before needing charging, that's what happened. Hence the quick sulphation.

I now charge to 100% every day if possible, and definitely no longer than every 2nd day. I have also increased my solar to 500W with a 40A MPPT controller so, on days like today, I may get a full charge without running the genny or the engine. When I leave the boat for a few days, (usually Sunday afternoon to Wednesday evening, I charge to 100% before leaving, and the solar obviously trickles to keep them topped up).

So I think I've got my charging regime up to scratch... in fact, I have no idea what more I can do to improve it.

I dont want to spend £600 on 4 new Trojan T105s. The current ones cost me £400 in May 3 years ago and that's about the most i want to spend, approx..

Given that I can use between about 70Ah and 100Ah per day, and I'd like a couple of days between charges now and then, I like the idea of 3 x 110Ah normal sized 12v batteries, with the option to add a 4th if i find it isnt enough.

The more I look at it, my head keeps telling me to buy 3 x Numax XV31MF for £90 each, and see how it goes

https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/numax/xv31mf/

 

See #11

I see that I can have a Rolls 125Ah battery for under £200 delivered if I want:

https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/rolls/s160/?gclid=Cj0KCQjw_ODWBRCTARIsAE2_EvXShcr-dBLqGaCrsAI4gBcSA0Io1a2qDkSDrE1VFhgom6QAbEv0YAYaAk7rEALw_wcB

For many years the old boaters "rule of thumb" was charge for 2 hours every day (probably to about 80%) and an 8 hour charge at the weekend, so this need to charge to 100% everyday is a new idea and very impractical if charging from an engine or generator. It will waste more diesel than the batteries are worth.

My own experience is that Trojans can easily go two weeks without a proper 100% charge, in fact I think its been almost 4 weeks now so maybe I've blown it this time.

The big thing is that when you do do the 100% charge then it must be 100%, this is NOT just 100% on the Smartgage, it really must be 100% and this will need at least 14.8 volts, most likely 15 volts in the winter, and quite possible a little equalise at 15.5.

................Dave

[dmr]

13 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

Any thoughts on these at almost £200 each delivered. Tubular plate technology seems to suggest many more cycles to a greater depth of charge than the norm. However, I guess if I only bought 2 and use 100Ah per day, I couldn't leave it 2 days before recharging, so not much better off than at present with my 3 year old sulphated Trojan T105s.

https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/numax/xdt30mf/

If these were proper batteries then they would have a proper spec, number of cycles at a specified discharge to 80% capacity, not a vague "might manage 100 cycles on a good day with a following wind". Any battery might manage 1000 cycles in the right conditions.

As always there are only two options, proper batteries and look after them, cheap batteries and replace them. It sounds like you have gone the route of proper batteries and don't look after them, and are now going the route of possibly very expensive but not quite proper batteries

[Richard10002]

56 minutes ago, dmr said:

If these were proper batteries then they would have a proper spec, number of cycles at a specified discharge to 80% capacity, not a vague "might manage 100 cycles on a good day with a following wind". Any battery might manage 1000 cycles in the right conditions.

As always there are only two options, proper batteries and look after them, cheap batteries and replace them. It sounds like you have gone the route of proper batteries and don't look after them, and are now going the route of possibly very expensive but not quite proper batteries

The reason I asked about them is that they were mentioned on the Facebook 12volt group as very cost effective. On the ncc.org site they get a, presumably independent, A rating, and state 115Ah, 2000 cycles to 50% SoC.

http://www.thencc.org.uk/downloads/Verified_Battery_Register_January_2018.pdf

having said that, I think if I was going to spend £200 on a 115Ah 12v battery, it would more likely be the Rolls, (125Ah), mentioned above, than a Numax. In fact, it may be most effective to buy a couple of Trojan T105s at 225Ah for £300, rather than getting a couple of Rolls at 250Ah for £400.

[mrsmelly]

6 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

The reason I asked about them is that they were mentioned on the Facebook 12volt group as very cost effective. On the ncc.org site they get a, presumably independent, A rating, and state 115Ah, 2000 cycles to 50% SoC.

http://www.thencc.org.uk/downloads/Verified_Battery_Register_January_2018.pdf

having said that, I think if I was going to spend £200 on a 115Ah 12v battery, it would more likely be the Rolls, (125Ah), mentioned above, than a Numax. In fact, it may be most effective to buy a couple of Trojan T105s at 225Ah for £300, rather than getting a couple of Rolls at 250Ah for £400.

I would be inclined to ask the people who post them as being very cost effective how many years of continuous off grid lifestyle they have actualy used them for and start by discounting anything from anyone who mentions phrases such as " weekends " " marinas" or "House" then start with say the twenty years plus liveaboards and work upwards for info from those that have done it for a long time.

[Richard10002]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

For many years the old boaters "rule of thumb" was charge for 2 hours every day (probably to about 80%) and an 8 hour charge at the weekend, so this need to charge to 100% everyday is a new idea and very impractical if charging from an engine or generator. It will waste more diesel than the batteries are worth.

My own experience is that Trojans can easily go two weeks without a proper 100% charge, in fact I think its been almost 4 weeks now so maybe I've blown it this time.

The big thing is that when you do do the 100% charge then it must be 100%, this is NOT just 100% on the Smartgage, it really must be 100% and this will need at least 14.8 volts, most likely 15 volts in the winter, and quite possible a little equalise at 15.5.

................Dave

Agreed!!

I have always charged until tail current is 2% or less of actual capacity before assuming they are 100% full, and have long been aware that 100% on the smartgauge means little/nothing.

Secondly... I used to use the old boaters "rule of thumb" of not letting SoC fall below 50%, with no restriction on time - it seems that I, (and MtB, and perhaps others), misunderstood that one, and I wasn't alone. When I got my Trojans I would often use them for 3 days or so without charging at all, and without worrying if SoC got as low as 40%, occasionally 30%  , which is what must have resulted in the sulphation and present capacity of about 200AH, as against the original capacity of 450Ah. I think Mtb left them for a week, as he could only run his genny or engine for charging at weekends.

Given my current charging regime, it seems that I am exceeding the "rule of thumb" quite significantly, the only downside being the use of more fuel than necessary. i therefore have room to relax things on occasion, or regularly, if it suits me.

My domestic battery space currently accommodates 3 x normal sized 110Ah 12v batteries, or 4 x Trojan T105 6V batteries and, given my useage, I dont really want less than 330Ah from a new set of batteries.

[Richard10002]

4 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I would be inclined to ask the people who post them as being very cost effective how many years of continuous off grid lifestyle they have actualy used them for and start by discounting anything from anyone who mentions phrases such as " weekends " " marinas" or "House" then start with say the twenty years plus liveaboards and work upwards for info from those that have done it for a long time.

The person who posted about them merely made me aware of them. It was the nccorg verification that made me think about considering them. But, more than anything, support, or the opposite, from people here and on ybw.com, is the thing that will sway me in one direction or another.

Hence the question

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, Richard10002 said:

The person who posted about them merely made me aware of them. It was the nccorg verification that made me think about considering them. But, more than anything, support, or the opposite, from people here and on ybw.com, is the thing that will sway me in one direction or another.

Hence the question

We need to get Cart to fit overhead electric cables like trains have.

[Richard10002]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

We need to get Cart to fit overhead electric cables like trains have.

Fat lot of use that would be to me on The Bridgewater.

Having said that, I am only a few hundred feet from the National Grid power cables which cross the canal at Stretford, and a similar distance from the electrified Metro line from Altrincham to Manchester... so it shouldn't be too much trouble to fix up a dodgy link to one or the other - might fry myself in the process though

 

[dmr]

23 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

Fat lot of use that would be to me on The Bridgewater.

Having said that, I am only a few hundred feet from the National Grid power cables which cross the canal at Stretford, and a similar distance from the electrified Metro line from Altrincham to Manchester... so it shouldn't be too much trouble to fix up a dodgy link to one or the other - might fry myself in the process though

 

No need to touch those cables, just get a big transformer/coil on the boat and steel the leccy from the magnetic field. Might be an urban myth, but some bloke did this in a shed at the bottom of his garden....and got caught and prosecuted.

................Dave

[dmr]

36 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

Agreed!!

I have always charged until tail current is 2% or less of actual capacity before assuming they are 100% full, and have long been aware that 100% on the smartgauge means little/nothing.

Secondly... I used to use the old boaters "rule of thumb" of not letting SoC fall below 50%, with no restriction on time - it seems that I, (and MtB, and perhaps others), misunderstood that one, and I wasn't alone. When I got my Trojans I would often use them for 3 days or so without charging at all, and without worrying if SoC got as low as 40%, occasionally 30%  , which is what must have resulted in the sulphation and present capacity of about 200AH, as against the original capacity of 450Ah. I think Mtb left them for a week, as he could only run his genny or engine for charging at weekends.

Given my current charging regime, it seems that I am exceeding the "rule of thumb" quite significantly, the only downside being the use of more fuel than necessary. i therefore have room to relax things on occasion, or regularly, if it suits me.

My domestic battery space currently accommodates 3 x normal sized 110Ah 12v batteries, or 4 x Trojan T105 6V batteries and, given my useage, I dont really want less than 330Ah from a new set of batteries.

Taking Trojans down to 40% or even 30% once in a while should not do them any harm. As I tried to stress, its all about the 100% charge. If you don't get to 100% for several days then 2% tail  current is likely not 100% charge, and the 2% also refers to the battery in its current slightly sulphated state, not its full capacity, so if you want to go several days, you need to charge to 2% then up the voltage a bit and charge for another hour or two, still more cost effective than charging to 100% every day.

............Dave

[peterboat]

I have just charged my valence Lifepo4 batteries up at 28 amps all the way to 100% proper batteries they are. My Full tractions on my big boat have been taking up to 50 amps most of the day but as they get full they restrict charging and its only by hitting the equalise button on the midnite solar charger can I speed up the process. Lithiums to to lead acid is like cheese and chalk I would be hard pressed to go back to lead batteries of any form after working with the valance batteries

[Richard10002]

2 hours ago, peterboat said:

I have just charged my valence Lifepo4 batteries up at 28 amps all the way to 100% proper batteries they are. My Full tractions on my big boat have been taking up to 50 amps most of the day but as they get full they restrict charging and its only by hitting the equalise button on the midnite solar charger can I speed up the process. Lithiums to to lead acid is like cheese and chalk I would be hard pressed to go back to lead batteries of any form after working with the valance batteries

But how much did you have to lay out as an initial investment? a thousand pounds or two I'd guess, which I and many others cant justify right now.

[peterboat]

11 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

But how much did you have to lay out as an initial investment? a thousand pounds or two I'd guess, which I and many others cant justify right now.

Secondhand with up to 126 cycles on them £2600 for 8 a bargain in comparison to lead acids

[dmr]

16 hours ago, peterboat said:

I have just charged my valence Lifepo4 batteries up at 28 amps all the way to 100% proper batteries they are. My Full tractions on my big boat have been taking up to 50 amps most of the day but as they get full they restrict charging and its only by hitting the equalise button on the midnite solar charger can I speed up the process. Lithiums to to lead acid is like cheese and chalk I would be hard pressed to go back to lead batteries of any form after working with the valance batteries

Please tell us what sort of charging and battery management systems you have, and keep updating us on how things are going and any problems. I am pretty sure that lithiums are the way to go but concerned about the reports of failures, I suspect another couple of years before it all gets established and reliable.

...............Dave