Engineers' Mechanics qualifications/insurance

[DanMax&Belle]

Hi,

If a boat engineer/mechanic is coming to take a look at my faulty engine on the towpath, what certification/insurance should they have?

Thanks 

Dan

[nicknorman]

Good question, hard to answer. I think there is no specific certification for boat engineering/mechanic. Only for work on gas. This is why it's best to choose someone based on a personal recommendation of their work, rather than picking someone at random. Unfortunately anyone can set themselves up as a boat engineer / mechanic. However they should have professional indemnity insurance so if they mess up your boat, they are covered when you sue them, and consequently they are worth suing. Ultimately though, with the difficulty of getting blood from a stone / actually taking someone to court and then actually getting the money out of them even if the court finds in your favour, I would say the most important thing is to select the right person in the first place (a conscientious and competent one), rather than the person with the insurance certificate.

[Tony Brooks]

Should or must?

Must = none. To protect themselves in case of a claim public liability and ideally professional indemnity or similar but I bet that would be very expensive.

I would be far more concerned about reputation, experience and qualifications.

[DanMax&Belle]

What are the qualifications which it would be a plus to have? What qualifications could they have? Given Tony and Nick's responses i take it there isn't a particularly recognisable or regularly seen narrowboat mechanic qualification/ 

noted RE prof indemnity 

[nicknorman]

11 minutes ago, DanMax&Belle said:

What are the qualifications which it would be a plus to have? What qualifications could they have? Given Tony and Nick's responses i take it there isn't a particularly recognisable or regularly seen narrowboat mechanic qualification/ 

noted RE prof indemnity 

People who are good at that sort of work have the right attitude, lots of experience, and probably no bits of paper proclaiming they’ve passed a course etc! On the other hand, someone having a degree in marine engineering could be a complete numpty when it comes to spanner wielding. Reputation is all, qualifications may not be worth the paper they’re written on!

I’m struggling to think of qualifications I’d look for. For example, I got Ed Shiers of 4 Counties Marine to help me replace the pulley on our travelpower. Top bloke, very helpful, friendly, competent and reliable. Didn’t charge much. But as far as I know, he doesn’t have any paper qualifications or if he does, he doesn’t mention them. Whereas his website lists loads of jobs successfully completed with photos. Perhaps it’s a bad sign if someone is bragging about their paper qualifications?

Equally, some years ago got a chap from a well known boat services company to look at our new Beta 43 under warranty (in other words  he was sent out by Beta as a contractor). Well he was a complete numpty, poked and prodded it and revved it a bit and eventually replaced the faulty bit with, as I later discovered, a second hand part he’d had lurking in his van for a few years (judging by the scratches on it) and consequently, our boat broke down about a mile later. When I phoned him back he wasn’t interested and suggested we’d probably run out of fuel (we hadn’t). In the end I got Beta to send me the relevant bit and fitted it myself, engine still running perfectly 7 years later! I would never let that chap near my boat again!

Edited April 18, 2018 by nicknorman

[RLWP]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Should or must?

Must = none. To protect themselves in case of a claim public liability and ideally professional indemnity or similar but I bet that would be very expensive.

We have public liability to £5 million (from memory). Not too expensive

[dmr]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

People who are good at that sort of work have the right attitude, lots of experience, and probably no bits of paper proclaiming they’ve passed a course etc! On the other hand, someone having a degree in marine engineering could be a complete numpty when it comes to spanner wielding. Reputation is all, qualifications may not be worth the paper they’re written on!

I’m struggling to think of qualifications I’d look for. For example, I got Ed Shiers of 4 Counties Marine to help me replace the pulley on our travelpower. Top bloke, very helpful, friendly, competent and reliable. Didn’t charge much. But as far as I know, he doesn’t have any paper qualifications or if he does, he doesn’t mention them. Whereas his website lists loads of jobs successfully completed with photos. Perhaps it’s a bad sign if someone is bragging about their paper qualifications?

Equally, some years ago got a chap from a well known boat services company to look at our new Beta 43 under warranty (in other words  he was sent out by Beta as a contractor). Well he was a complete numpty, poked and prodded it and revved it a bit and eventually replaced the faulty bit with, as I later discovered, a second hand part he’d had lurking in his van for a few years (judging by the scratches on it) and consequently, our boat broke down about a mile later. When I phoned him back he wasn’t interested and suggested we’d probably run out of fuel (we hadn’t). In the end I got Beta to send me the relevant bit and fitted it myself, engine still running perfectly 7 years later! I would never let that chap near my boat again!

There is a lot of truth in what Nick says here. As someone who has worked in a University and holds a degree in engineering I have a healthy disrespect for academic qualifications, there are good engineers and bad engineers, and good mechanics and bad mechanics. I did "work" with an engineer who eventually obtained a PhD in engineering, and, I promise this is true, he just could not work a spanner.

................Dave

[BWM]

It sometimes seems that there are more sharks on the canal that in the sea! Recommendations as mentioned above are probably key to getting a good job done.

[pearley]

It is difficult to find a good, reliable boat 'engineer'. I was going to say mechanic but often what you want is a hit more than that. The other problem is actually getting one to commit to a date  and time and turn up/be ready for you at that date and time. 

We have a Cummins Onan generator. It required work that meant disconnecting the mains input and output  and, although I've done most work on it, I didn't want to do this. So, I phoned the man recommended by Cummins, sent him photos and part numbers of the bits needed. After 6 weeks I phoned to be told Cummins couldn't identify the parts and perhaps I could deal with them direct. I sent them an email and 2 days later I had paid for the parts and they were on there way from Belgium. When they arrived I phoned to be told he was busy for the next fortnight, couldn't book a date but phone back in 2 weeks. Two weeks later told the same thing. Next up phoned another well known company recommended on Facebook and explained all. Sent email and photos and never heard another word. Tried the next on my list and Bingo, job booked in and done when they said. So plus one for JD Boat Services. 

It would be nice to have a list of recommended boat mechanics/engineers but probably good reasons why their isn't. 

Edited April 18, 2018 by pearley

[Boat&Bikes]

As pearley said it would be good to have a list of trusted people in the canal world. The Kawasaki forum I visit has a list of member recommended suppliers and mechanics. Could we? 

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, DanMax&Belle said:

What are the qualifications which it would be a plus to have? What qualifications could they have? Given Tony and Nick's responses i take it there isn't a particularly recognisable or regularly seen narrowboat mechanic qualification/ 

noted RE prof indemnity 

A City and Guilds around NVQ level 3 (C&G technicians certificate) in vehicle, agricultural or plant work would be a good as would similar in Boat Yard Fitting (not marine engineering). But notice I put qualifications as the last thing. The point about this type of qualification is that the holder has had the opportunity to learn how things work in some depth so should be able to do a fair job of fault finding without unnecessary changing components.

1 hour ago, RLWP said:

We have public liability to £5 million (from memory). Not too expensive

I was on about the probable cost of "professional" indemnity insurance, not public liability.

[howardang]

In my view, there are some extremely competent engineers around the system but we have to rely on word of mouth to sort the weed from the chaff. Personally, I am slightly wary of those who describe themselves as marine engineers because, with some exceptions, many have not got the depth of knowledge and experience to fit into this category. 

Howard

[X Alan W]

21 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Good question, hard to answer. I think there is no specific certification for boat engineering/mechanic. Only for work on gas. This is why it's best to choose someone based on a personal recommendation of their work, rather than picking someone at random. Unfortunately anyone can set themselves up as a boat engineer / mechanic. However they should have professional indemnity insurance so if they mess up your boat, they are covered when you sue them, and consequently they are worth suing. Ultimately though, with the difficulty of getting blood from a stone / actually taking someone to court and then actually getting the money out of them even if the court finds in your favour, I would say the most important thing is to select the right person in the first place (a conscientious and competent one), rather than the person with the insurance certificate.

I Have no Idea if it's still in vogue But I have 2 marine engineering qualificatuons MI MAR E & an HNC in marine engineering obtain at the end of a long apprenticeship of day release 3 nights a week night school.& full time job at a north east ship yard now closed

[nicknorman]

On 19/04/2018 at 13:44, X Alan W said:

I Have no Idea if it's still in vogue But I have 2 marine engineering qualificatuons MI MAR E & an HNC in marine engineering obtain at the end of a long apprenticeship of day release 3 nights a week night school.& full time job at a north east ship yard now closed

Yes I’d say that is a proper qualification! But even so, I would say that if you are an engineer used to working on large ships with huge engines, hydraulics and complex electrical systems, you are not necessarily familiar with narrowboat engInes and systems. Of course such a person could easily become familiar, but only if he could be bothered.

[Detling]

The best qualification is to be recommended by satisfied customers. If when you ring them they can't fit you in for weeks you know they must be getting something right.  If the engineer feels he/she has to advertise widely they are either new (inexperienced) or have not got a good following.

[howardang]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

Yes I’d say that is a proper qualification! But even so, I would say that if you are an engineer used to working on large ships with huge engines, hydraulics and complex electrical systems, you are not necessarily familiar with narrowboat engInes and systems. Of course such a person could easily become familiar, but only if he could be bothered.

It is worth mentioning that large ships with huge engines also have small engines and systems which need to be kept up to scratch.  Lifeboat engines, outboards, fire pumps, plumbing and  hydraulic systems  etc etc  all require maintenance by ships engineers who have qualifications at least at the level mentioned by X Alan W. It is not a question of being bothered to look at them,  it is part of their job.

Howard

[MtB]

On 18/04/2018 at 16:06, DanMax&Belle said:

Hi,

If a boat engineer/mechanic is coming to take a look at my faulty engine on the towpath, what certification/insurance should they have?

Thanks 

Dan

 

I'd say if you are broken down on the towpath you are in no position to be picky. 

You need someone skilled at fault diagnosis and such people often come without fistfuls of certificates and insurance. 

 

Edit to add...

Reams of certificates are often a substitute for raw, intuitive mechanical skill and ability. Beware the technician parading all his tickets...

Edited April 20, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, howardang said:

It is worth mentioning that large ships with huge engines also have small engines and systems which need to be kept up to scratch.  Lifeboat engines, outboards, fire pumps, plumbing and  hydraulic systems  etc etc  all require maintenance by ships engineers who have qualifications at least at the level mentioned by X Alan W. It is not a question of being bothered to look at them,  it is part of their job.

Howard

It’s part of their job when employed by someone. But when becoming a self employed “narrowboat marine engineer” whilst you might think it part of the job, in fact it’s optional. The point I’m trying to make is that whilst an engineering mentality might be transferable, specific knowledge about specific engines and systems isn’t. It is up to the person to learn about the specifics of an engine or system they might never have seen before. Some can be bothered, some can’t.

That said, someone with the experience of X Alan W is off to a flying start.

[howardang]

9 hours ago, nicknorman said:

It’s part of their job when employed by someone. But when becoming a self employed “narrowboat marine engineer” whilst you might think it part of the job, in fact it’s optional. The point I’m trying to make is that whilst an engineering mentality might be transferable, specific knowledge about specific engines and systems isn’t. It is up to the person to learn about the specifics of an engine or system they might never have seen before. Some can be bothered, some can’t.

That said, someone with the experience of X Alan W is off to a flying start.

Mike hit the nail on the head earlier in post 17 about the practicality of a breakdown on the cut, but theoretically,  and having some little knowledge of both, I would much rather chose someone with the qualifications and depth of background experience of a real marine engineer rather than someone who just calls himself one.

Howard

 

[X Alan W]

11 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Yes I’d say that is a proper qualification! But even so, I would say that if you are an engineer used to working on large ships with huge engines, hydraulics and complex electrical systems, you are not necessarily familiar with narrowboat engInes and systems. Of course such a person could easily become familiar, but only if he could be bothered.

By the time I"d been deferred & done my compulsory Military service the ship building in the UK was dying so I ended up as the engineer for Andertion Canal CC soon after starting one of the crews ( wife had pregnancy problems) so (We wife & I )were asked to fill in boating Found I liked that better & never went back to Marine Engineering but did progress to aero engineering

[MtB]

31 minutes ago, X Alan W said:

but did progress to aero engineering

 

Yes, I often marvel at the high tech engineeringinvolved in making those bubbly chocolate bars. 

The general public have no idea!

 

[WotEver]

5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yes, I often marvel at the high tech engineeringinvolved in making those bubbly chocolate bars. 

The general public have no idea!

 

I takes real experience to read a vernier calliper accurately while assessing the dimensions of those bubbles. 

[rusty69]

12 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I takes real experience to read a vernier calliper accurately while assessing the dimensions of those bubbles. 

Thats why they employ ex Aero engineers

 

Ooops Aero jokes already taken! It was a bit Flakey anyway and off Topic.

Edited April 21, 2018 by rusty69

[MtB]

23 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I takes real experience to read a vernier calliper accurately while assessing the dimensions of those bubbles. 

 

Yes but what few people realise, is that every bubble is made individually by Alan, then assembled into whole chocolate bars by a bloody big machine in Slough.  

And yes, reading a vernier is another of those virtually lost skills. Even those who can read them rarely understand how they actually work.

 

[MtB]

(Although I'm sure you do!)