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Help - Seized Nut


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Help,

I am trying to replace the mica "glass" on my Kabola Old Dutch stove in advance of Monday's BSS inspection.

The mica is held in place by by a brass ring, secured to the stove with 6 six 6mm brass cheesehead bolts and nuts.

Typically 5 have come out relatively easily, but the nut has seized onto the bolt on the 6th 

Despite using penetrating oil the last but will not come free. 

The Philips cheesehead bolt has now become damaged, so I cut a slot into the bolt head to enable the use of a flat screwdriver, whilst using a 6mm socket to hold the nut still inside the stove.

I still cannot get the nut to move.

Any ideas on what to do next please?

 

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Edited by cuthound
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This is a nut and bolt rather than a bolt into a tapped hole so you have a fair few options. Is it really tight or is the whole lot spinning? Drilling the bolt out will most likely be the quickest approach. If the bolt really is brass then it will drill easily. If its not spinning then use a socket on the nut and tighten it till it shears off. eBay might be the quickest way to get replacements unless you are handy for a good hardware shop.

...............Dave

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34 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Heat it up with a blow torch

Tighten (yes tighten) the nut to 'crack the seal'

Untighten as easy as you please.

Thanks Alan, tried that, no success unfortunately.

 

34 minutes ago, Ray T said:

Drill the bolt head off and fit a new bolt, one option.

Use a nut splitter on the nut, again fit a new bolt, another option.

Thanks Ray. Drilling is my last option. Scared of damaging the brass ring though.

A nut splitter might work if it will physically fit into the with enough space to operate it.

Edited by cuthound
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13 minutes ago, dmr said:

This is a nut and bolt rather than a bolt into a tapped hole so you have a fair few options. Is it really tight or is the whole lot spinning? Drilling the bolt out will most likely be the quickest approach. If the bolt really is brass then it will drill easily. If its not spinning then use a socket on the nut and tighten it till it shears off. eBay might be the quickest way to get replacements unless you are handy for a good hardware shop.

...............Dave

Thanks Dave, it is not spinning. I like the idea of tightening until the bolt  hopefully the damaged head of the bolt will let me tighten it enough.

3 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

File or grind one flat of the nut down to the thread, it will then spread as you turn it. You can save the screw this way if it matters. Otherwise just grind it off and replace.

Thanks Sam, there isn't enough space to get a grinder in there,  but a small file might work. Because the stove is circular in plan, the convex walls keep getting in the way.

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1 minute ago, cuthound said:

Thanks Dave, it is not spinning. I like the idea of tightening until the bolt  hopefully the damaged head of the bolt will let me tighten it enough.

Is there room on the bolt to get two of the other nuts on, or failing that two thinner nuts from your random fittings boxes?  Tighten these against each other to give enough grip to get the stubborn nut moving.

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1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

Is there room on the bolt to get two of the other nuts on, or failing that two thinner nuts from your random fittings boxes?  Tighten these against each other to give enough grip to get the stubborn nut moving.

Thanks Biscuits, I can get a good grip on the nut with a 6mm deep socket, the problem is getting a grip on the bolt head, which was originally a Phillips machine screw which I have damaged and had to cut into.

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1 minute ago, Boredrider said:

Dremel the head off.  More control than trying to drill it.

Or possibly better, if there is good access, Dremel the nut off so no chance of damage to the brass ring. A little grinding stone in a Dremel is a very effective tool and with a bit of patience can remove a lot of metal, and safer and more precise than an angle grinder.

.............Dave 

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2 minutes ago, cuthound said:

the problem is getting a grip on the bolt head, which was originally a Phillips machine screw which I have damaged and had to cut into.

That is why I am suggesting putting two more nuts on the protruding thread, then tightening these two against each other.  That will give considerably more purchase than a damaged bolt head, and you will be able to get a spanner on the new locknuts and a spanner on the stuck nut.  That should be enough to free the stuck nut, and then remove all three.

I think I would drill it carefully, personally.  Cut another slot in the head to give you a centrepoint then drill in increasing sizes until the head comes off the machine screw.  Just remember you don't need a drill the diameter of the nut, just the diameter shaft of the screw and the head will snap off.

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20 minutes ago, Boredrider said:

Dremel the head off.  More control than trying to drill it.

Thanks Boredrider. Too much risk of damaging the brass ring with a Dremel. 

 

16 minutes ago, dmr said:

Or possibly better, if there is good access, Dremel the nut off so no chance of damage to the brass ring. A little grinding stone in a Dremel is a very effective tool and with a bit of patience can remove a lot of metal, and safer and more precise than an angle grinder.

.............Dave 

Thanks Dave, unfortunately there is not enough space in the stove to get the Dremel close enough, because of the curved stove wall.

 

16 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

That is why I am suggesting putting two more nuts on the protruding thread, then tightening these two against each other.  That will give considerably more purchase than a damaged bolt head, and you will be able to get a spanner on the new locknuts and a spanner on the stuck nut.  That should be enough to free the stuck nut, and then remove all three.

I think I would drill it carefully, personally.  Cut another slot in the head to give you a centrepoint then drill in increasing sizes until the head comes off the machine screw.  Just remember you don't need a drill the diameter of the nut, just the diameter shaft of the screw and the head will snap off.

Thanks Biscuits, I just tried putting two nuts on. I got a better purchase but it has now damaged the slot I cut in the cheesehead of the machine screw.

I now have no option but to drill the head off the bolt. As the light is beginning to fail I'll do it tomorrow.

Thinking ahead to the next time that I may have to replace the glass, is there any merit in replacing the brass nuts and bolts with steel ones and putting coppaslip grease on the threads?

Edited by cuthound
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Replace with stainless screws with brass nuts. By the time you need to take it off again, the nuts will be almost nonexistent. 

Its only curved in one plane, use a grinder in the vertical plane.

Edited by Boater Sam
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19 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Thanks Boredrider. Too much risk of damaging the brass ring with a Dremel. 

 

Thanks Dave, unfortunately there is not enough space in the stove to get the Dremel close enough, because of the curved stove wall.

 

Thanks Biscuits, I just tried putting two nuts on. I got a better purchase but it has now damaged the slot I cut in the cheesehead of the machine screw.

I now have no option but to drill the head off the bolt. As the light is beginning to fail I'll do it tomorrow.

Thinking ahead to the next time that I may have to replace the glass, is there any merit in replacing the brass nuts and bolts with steel ones and putting coppaslip grease on the threads?

With a small pilot drill to start, followed by one of the same size as the bolt you run very little risk of damaging the brass ring. Done slowly, the head of the bolt will come away and attach itself to the driil bit. 

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31 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Replace with stainless screws with brass nuts. By the time yo need to take it off again, th nuts will be almost none existent.

Thanks Sam, although the stove is over 10 old, it wasn't used until I bought the boat 4 years ago. I doubt the stove has been used for more than 500 hours, so I was surprised this one nut had seized.

I will use stainless screws with brass nuts and hopefully won't have to replace the  glass again.

28 minutes ago, BWM said:

With a small pilot drill to start, followed by one of the same size as the bolt you run very little risk of damaging the brass ring. Done slowly, the head of the bolt will come away and attach itself to the driil bit. 

Thanks BWM, I'll let you know how I get on.

Edited by cuthound
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2 hours ago, cuthound said:

Thanks Biscuits, I just tried putting two nuts on. I got a better purchase but it has now damaged the slot I cut in the cheesehead of the machine screw.

I think you misunderstood him. Put two locknuts on, tight to each other but not touching the original nut. Now with one spanner (or socket) on the locknuts and another spanner on the seized nut you should be able to free it. You don’t touch the head in this process. 

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18 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I think you misunderstood him. Put two locknuts on, tight to each other but not touching the original nut. Now with one spanner (or socket) on the locknuts and another spanner on the seized nut you should be able to free it. You don’t touch the head in this process. 

Ah, I see, I'll try before drilling tomorrow. Thanks Tony.

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Single hex socket on nut, mole grips on head.(As tight as possible)

Wring off nut.

Does depend on nut flats being good enough for the socket, and the mole grips being very tight.

 

Bod

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25 minutes ago, Bod said:

Single hex socket on nut, mole grips on head.(As tight as possible)

Wring off nut.

Does depend on nut flats being good enough for the socket, and the mole grips being very tight.

 

Bod

Mole grips won't won't grip the round machine screw head unfortunately and risk damaging the brass ring.

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6 minutes ago, Robbo said:

I use these https://www.screwfix.com/p/screw-bolt-extractor-set-2-piece-set/2951v,  basically screws into the screw head as you try to unscrew it.

I've got one of those from Aldi, but never had much success with it. Worth giving it a try before drilling though. Thanks Robbo.

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Insulating/masking tape might protect the brass ring whilst some form of pliers grip the head.

End on grip to the head, will be difficult, unless you have special pliers.  Best to try a side on grip, proper "Mole" grips, have been superseded by gorilla grips which have curved jaws (Irwin make this type.)

Failing that drill the head off, starting with the smallest drill you have, working up through the sizes, as required.  Go careful, you really do not need a broken drill!

Try using Robbo's extractors to hold the head, whilst the nut is undone.

 

Bod

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