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4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Thats only the ones they know about directly, the radiation spread far and wide Scotland had it, how many case of cancer were caused by it? If Russian Spetznats hadnt sacrificed their lives, the results would have been worldwide devastation if all the reactors on site had gone up!! You are taking a short term view to a long term problem  People have to take control and solar panels on all houses/buildings that are suitable would be the first step battey rbanks as others have said will also work powered by those solar panels. Its not the states problem to supply electric its yours, and the quicker people realise that the better

What about all the uncontrolled waste from Solar?   If people were to supply their own electric we would just use the cheapest method not the greenest.

I think your taking a short term view of the waste solar will create.   It's a dirty process to create and re-cycle the panels and majority will probably just end up in land-fill. 

Edited by Robbo

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Plus, I've noticed there's much less spare sunshine about now people have started harvesting it. My deck chair hardly got used last year. :(

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Getting back to boats... just yesterday I was cruising along, thinking how much better it would be without the din and stench from the diesel engine. I do worry about inhaling all that muck and the rattling lump irritates my tinnitus. What with that and stoves (actually - I really love my stove and would miss it dreadfully even if it were replaced with something just as effective) it seems that us boaters are anything but green. I'm more aware now of all the oil, gas, diesel, wood and coal that I get through. 

I see the future of boats as electric, with a small generator to re charge in cloudy times - but we should be asking crt and the others for electric hook up at all visitor moorings - that is the quickest and easiest way I can see of cutting our emissions. Even without electric propulsion, at least all the hours and hours of engine running just to watch a bit of tv could be ceased. I'd be prepared to pay a premium for hook up - even at 50p a kw it would be cheap!

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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

Thats only the ones they know about directly, the radiation spread far and wide Scotland had it, how many case of cancer were caused by it? If Russian Spetznats hadnt sacrificed their lives, the results would have been worldwide devastation if all the reactors on site had gone up!! You are taking a short term view to a long term problem  People have to take control and solar panels on all houses/buildings that are suitable would be the first step battey rbanks as others have said will also work powered by those solar panels. Its not the states problem to supply electric its yours, and the quicker people realise that the better

So you care about hypothetical deaths that might happen with nuclear -- but haven't ever since it was introduced -- but don't care about the thousands of deaths that actually happen every year from oil/coal/gas etc? Is this because they're mostly Chinese miners or oil rig workers and nobody cares?

Before seriously suggesting that the entire world (or at least the UK -- or even one household) can be completely solar/wind powered I suggest you go and get hold of some real facts and numbers, as opposed to the drivel brandished around on the internet -- "Sustainable Energy -- Without the Hot Air" by David MacKay (free download) is a very good start, highly recommended by real scientists and engineers (and even politicians...) who know what they're talking about.

There are many good reasons to get as much of our power from renewable sources as possible, but they're not a solution on their own -- at least, not without truly enormous solar farms in deserts around the globe interconnected by a global power grid, which will need not only massive investment but also intergovernmental agreements far in advance of anything that politics has managed so far.

Local power generation from wind and solar in the UK is a useful top-up but the weather means the average yield is relatively low and supply is unreliable -- if you want to live off the grid feel free, but expect to spend a lot of time in the dark. Unless you spend a fortune on massive battery banks, which have a cost in money and environmental impact of their own. Most people would far rather have a reliable source of power from a national grid, generated in ways that use economies of scale to everyone's advantage.

6 minutes ago, Johny London said:

Getting back to boats... just yesterday I was cruising along, thinking how much better it would be without the din and stench from the diesel engine. I do worry about inhaling all that muck and the rattling lump irritates my tinnitus. What with that and stoves (actually - I really love my stove and would miss it dreadfully even if it were replaced with something just as effective) it seems that us boaters are anything but green. I'm more aware now of all the oil, gas, diesel, wood and coal that I get through. 

I see the future of boats as electric, with a small generator to re charge in cloudy times - but we should be asking crt and the others for electric hook up at all visitor moorings - that is the quickest and easiest way I can see of cutting our emissions. Even without electric propulsion, at least all the hours and hours of engine running just to watch a bit of tv could be ceased. I'd be prepared to pay a premium for hook up - even at 50p a kw it would be cheap!

There was a discussion about this some time back. In an ideal world it would be great if there were regular high-current charging points all round the canals, but who would pay for the costs of installing them? It's the same issue as electric cars, but there could be 100x more of them each spending 10x more on fuel than narrowboats, meaning 1000x more money to pay for the system.

Edited by IanD
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The answer is here.

Dilithium is an extremely hard crystalline mineral that occurs naturally on some planets. When placed in a high-frequency electromagnetic field, eddy currents are induced in its structure which keep charged particles away from the crystal lattice. This prevents it from reacting with antimatter when so energized, because the antimatter particles never actually touch it. Therefore, it is used to contain and regulate the annihilation reaction of matter and antimatter in a starship's warp core, which otherwise would explode from the uncontrolled annihilation reaction. Though low-quality artificial crystals can be grown or replicated, they are limited in the power of the reaction they can regulate without fragmenting, and are therefore largely unsuitable for warp drive applications. Due to the need for natural dilithium crystals for interstellar travel, deposits of this material are, much like real-world equivalents such as oil, a highly contested resource, and as such, dilithium crystals have led to more interstellar conflict than all other reasons combined.

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1 hour ago, IanD said:

So you care about hypothetical deaths that might happen with nuclear -- but haven't ever since it was introduced -- but don't care about the thousands of deaths that actually happen every year from oil/coal/gas etc? Is this because they're mostly Chinese miners or oil rig workers and nobody cares?

Before seriously suggesting that the entire world (or at least the UK -- or even one household) can be completely solar/wind powered I suggest you go and get hold of some real facts and numbers, as opposed to the drivel brandished around on the internet -- "Sustainable Energy -- Without the Hot Air" by David MacKay (free download) is a very good start, highly recommended by real scientists and engineers (and even politicians...) who know what they're talking about.

There are many good reasons to get as much of our power from renewable sources as possible, but they're not a solution on their own -- at least, not without truly enormous solar farms in deserts around the globe interconnected by a global power grid, which will need not only massive investment but also intergovernmental agreements far in advance of anything that politics has managed so far.

Local power generation from wind and solar in the UK is a useful top-up but the weather means the average yield is relatively low and supply is unreliable -- if you want to live off the grid feel free, but expect to spend a lot of time in the dark. Unless you spend a fortune on massive battery banks, which have a cost in money and environmental impact of their own. Most people would far rather have a reliable source of power from a national grid, generated in ways that use economies of scale to everyone's advantage.

There was a discussion about this some time back. In an ideal world it would be great if there were regular high-current charging points all round the canals, but who would pay for the costs of installing them? It's the same issue as electric cars, but there could be 100x more of them each spending 10x more on fuel than narrowboats, meaning 1000x more money to pay for the system.

Strange but true I get along I get along with solar panels and my whispergen, houses with there large roof areas could do the same with a battery bank, more wind turbines are needed, and I did say the smallest nuclear possible. Of course some people dont want that, me I accept that in the future we will have to make choices, its just a shame that the ones who dont care wouldnt be the first to die through gross pollution!!

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On 17/04/2018 at 14:51, IanD said:

Everyone except Toyota and BMW -- who have spent a lot of money on them and won't admit they're wrong -- realises that hydrogen/fuel cells are a non-starter because the overall efficiency from the power source is appalling (far worse than BEV) due to so many losses in the overall energy chain (which no amount of clever hand-waving will fix), and hydrogen storage is a nightmare. If we want to move to centralised power generation for transport -- preferably from renewable sources, or failing that nuclear -- then the first priority is to use this as efficiently as possible to minimise the amount of generation capacity needed, and hydrogen fails massively at this -- and the failure is due to fundamental laws of chemistry/physics/thermodynamics, not something that can be fixed by a new invention.

The statement about capacity problems when everyone arrives home and plugs in would be true, except this isn't how it will work when there are lots of electric cars. Pricing will be set to rise at peak demand periods and fall when there's excess capacity (e.g. in the middle of the night), you'll arrive home and plug in your car and tell it (or the smart meter) that you want it to be changed by the next morning at the lowest cost, and exactly when this is done overnight will be negotiated automatically. If your car is fully charged and you don't need it to be (e.g. at work) you can even sell the excess back to the grid when power is expensive, to help even out power demand peaks. Done this way -- and it will be, because it's the only way that makes economic sense -- there's already enough spare grid capacity in the UK to charge millions of BEV cheaply every night with no problem. If you want to charge during the day it'll be more expensive, but still a lot cheaper than petrol/diesel. When the number of BEV rises to tens of millions some extra grid and distribution capacity will be needed, but this is a *long* way in the future.

This doesn't solve the big problem with renewables about where the power comes from when generation peaks (e.g. from solar/wind) don't line up with demand peaks, and either huge amounts of energy storage (*really* huge amounts, not just some batteries or pumped storage) or continuously available baseline power from nuclear are needed to fill in the gaps. But this is the same problem as renewables face in general, there's nothing special about BEV in this respect.

Real life example of the local infrastructure not being man enough for fast chargers from yesterday's Honest John Daily Telegraph website.

Whilst the grid has spare capacity if used off-peak, the local infrastructure hasn't,  because the designers applied diversity based on load patterns at the time the houses were built, as I pointed out in post #37.

From the 11kV/415v transformer onwards much of the domestic network will need to be upgraded if electric cars become the norm.

Electric avenue

I have bought a Renault Zoe electric car. Chargemaster could only fit a 16amp (3.6kw) charging unit instead of the usual 30amp (7kw) one. This means my new Zoe will take about 14 hours to fully charge instead of 7, so I cannot fully take advantage of Economy 7 rates. The reason for this is that, apparently, my neighbour and I share a single electric cable from the road to our meter boxes. Have I any legal right to insist that my supply company (not sure who they are) fit an extra cable so that my neighbour and myself have separated electricity supplies and we can each use the full load if required?

JT, via email

Only if you pay for it. And you are facing the infrastructure problem confronting many electric car owners. Most streets of 10 houses can only properly charge 2 - 3 electric cars. Makes a mockery of the whole idea. 

Click to Honest John’s Motoring Agony Column 21-04-2018 Part 2

 
 

 

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Engineer Andy    2 days ago

Very nice puns this week (part 1 anyway - I haven't read part 2 yet). I especially agree about with HJ on the last two items - PCP deals with other household debt is going to blow up in our faces sooner rather than later, unless we deal with it now.

The 'charge' (pun intended) to fully electric or at least 'plug in' cars is idiotic, as none of the infrastructure is available, apart from a few charging points here and there, and, if you're willing to shell out several £000s, at home. Multiply that by 5 or 10 if you want the same for a business or in a rural area.

I did find AT's comments (Flat Lined [wow! That's near the mark HJ!]) about 'buying a new car as a consequence of her husband's impending death' rather sinister, though I suspect it was completely unintended. Hopefully.

Edited by Engineer Andy on 20/04/2018 at 18:12

 
148745373ffd980e442afd9fe2a7a4ef?s=48&r=g&d=identicon

Palcouk    2 days ago

Flat Lined - Lexus CT 
I had one for 3 years, initially about 5k per year but ended up at 3K, obviously mostly local, never had any battery problem
 
c23f4a2f476b4e4a06db4d8bfa34bca2?s=48&r=g&d=identicon

glidermania    2 days ago

"I have a business that has purchased on HP a BMW 330e that allegedly does 120-140mpg. The director has the new car for 9 days and the best he can get is 44mpg. I have reviewed the HP agreement and because it is business there does not appear to be a claim...>" 

LOL, you have to laugh at some 'directors' dont you?
 
b02b25696b67a9688e6dd1bd49805305?s=48&r=g&d=identicon

Steve Mugglestone    yesterday

Montimar 

Flat Lined-Lexus CT 
The 12 Volt Battery is used to power the electrics not start the Engine.
 
5b3eb355c896847cfc1781d9cdacce7b?s=48&r=g&d=identicon

Honestjohn    yesterday

Not true. My late father had an Auris hybrid and if the 12v battery was flat the car was effectively dead. Jumping it enabled the internal combustion engine to start. There is a procedudre for this. Positive connection under a black cover on the RHS of the engine compartment. negative connection to a negative earth body part.

HJ

 
b02b25696b67a9688e6dd1bd49805305?s=48&r=g&d=identicon

Steve Mugglestone    yesterday

Steve Muggiestone 

Yes if the 12 v battery is dead. The car is dead. You need the 12v battery to power the electrics and this allows the Traction Battery to start the engine. 
The 12v battery is quite small on the Auris hybrid because it is never used to start the engine.
 
4f1adb2bec43b67d857c2e34be9554db?s=48&r=g&d=identicon

   new_thread.gif   just now

With regard to getting the correct tyre pressures, I use a hand held infra-red thermometer. 

The pressures are correct with hot tyres, when the temperatures across the tread are the same.
 
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"

Edited by cuthound
To get the transformer voltage right. Doh.

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41 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Real life example of the local infrastructure not being man enough for fast chargers from yesterday's Honest John Daily Telegraph website.

 

   new_thread.gif   just now

With regard to getting the correct tyre pressures, I use a hand held infra-red thermometer. 

The pressures are correct with hot tyres, when the temperatures across the tread are the same.

Interesting other use for the infrequent red thermometer. My boat hasnt got any inflated tyres though!

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10 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Interesting other use for the infrequent red thermometer. My boat hasnt got any inflated tyres though!

Yes I wrote that. I used that method to determine optimise tyre pressures on my youngest son's Lotus Elise,  at it wears the inside edges rapidly on the standard pressures.

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Just now, cuthound said:

Yes I wrote that. I used that method to determine optimise tyre pressures on my youngest son's Lotus Elise,  at it wears the inside edges rapidly on the standard pressures.

Good stuff!

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There will be houses where the local supply doesn't have enough capacity, like the case quoted where it is shared. I'd like to see some real numbers for how widespread this is, because in the case quoted the house wouldn't have enough incoming power to run (for example) an electric shower or an electric cooker (or both...), and this is definitely not normal for the UK -- anywhere that can run a 10kW shower (most houses) can certainly run a 7kW BEV charging point.

I suspect that this is one case which is true as far as it goes, but saying that this is true for the whole of the UK is anti-BEV scaremongering -- like the "grid meltdown" doom-mongers...

As post ~37 says, the local infrastructure is often sized to allow each house to draw 30A-50A simultaneously -- where this is an issue, smart charger negotiation will have to be used to prevent local network overload due to simultaneous charging, but this will undoubtedly be done anyway since it's the only way that makes sense to deal with a lot of BEV.

Edited by IanD

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1 hour ago, IanD said:

There will be houses where the local supply doesn't have enough capacity, like the case quoted where it is shared. I'd like to see some real numbers for how widespread this is, because in the case quoted the house wouldn't have enough incoming power to run (for example) an electric shower or an electric cooker (or both...), and this is definitely not normal for the UK -- anywhere that can run a 10kW shower (most houses) can certainly run a 7kW BEV charging point.

I suspect that this is one case which is true as far as it goes, but saying that this is true for the whole of the UK is anti-BEV scaremongering -- like the "grid meltdown" doom-mongers...

As post ~37 says, the local infrastructure is often sized to allow each house to draw 30A-50A simultaneously -- where this is an issue, smart charger negotiation will have to be used to prevent local network overload due to simultaneous charging, but this will undoubtedly be done anyway since it's the only way that makes sense to deal with a lot of BEV.

You wont see real numbers because it is a design calculation that will vary  according to circumstance.

This article explains and gives examples of diversity.

https://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-standards/diversity-vs-demand

They suggest typical diversity and load factors of between 1. 5 and 2.0. In the example they use the capacity is about 2/3rds of the maximum potential load.

For domestic use I would expect it to be half or less, because of the age of the typical house. Houses (and therefore the infrastructure that supplies them) built today expect to have a higher load connected to them than ones built say 30 years ago.

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On 17/04/2018 at 09:04, Robbo said:

Oh great so we go from burning fuel to burning fuel.  Biomass isn't sustainable for the amount of energy we will require so it will just equal deforestation.   Nuclear is one of the cleanest solutions around and is really the only solution to reduce green house gases as well as provide are needs for energy in the future.

Biomass is a fine idea, it's just how its be implemented. 

Biomass should be small scale using local wood waste or fast growing coppice wood,  not imported timber.

It can never replace the large scale coal/nuclear

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On 22/04/2018 at 18:36, cuthound said:

You wont see real numbers because it is a design calculation that will vary  according to circumstance.

This article explains and gives examples of diversity.

https://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-standards/diversity-vs-demand

They suggest typical diversity and load factors of between 1. 5 and 2.0. In the example they use the capacity is about 2/3rds of the maximum potential load.

For domestic use I would expect it to be half or less, because of the age of the typical house. Houses (and therefore the infrastructure that supplies them) built today expect to have a higher load connected to them than ones built say 30 years ago.

Maybe this is a potential problem for a lot of people, or maybe it isn't -- my point is that one household highlighted in a newspaper doesn't mean it's a widespread issue. My incoming supply is rated at 60A, which is a good thing since I've got a 10kW shower (40A spur) and an electric cooker (30A spur) as well as all the usual appliances. I'm sure if I turned absolutely everything on at once something would go pop, likewise if everyone else in the street did the same the local distribution would trip out. Widespread use of BEV will make the load balancing problem bigger, and smart charging essential -- maybe total capacity will then be an issue or maybe not, right now there's no evidence either way.

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9 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

My incoming supply had a 60A fuse. I asked for the supply to be upgraded. They came and installed a 100A fuse! No other change required.

Just checked, I was wrong -- mine is 100A too :-)

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