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enandess

Boat Pricing Conundrum!

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As we search for our boat I am increasingly bewildered by the price of differing boats. I understand how the various 'brands' and fitouts will affect the price, but, as an example, when I see a new boat costing less than a 10 year old boat, is the price differential between one and the other really that justified?

www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=559080

www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=560404

We are no where near experts although we have done lots of research, and we are getting stuck on the new versus used issue. With a budget of around £60,000 is it better to go for a new boat from a less known builder but still with some type of warranty or is it better to go with an older boat from a favoured builder? Looking at the maths would it be fair to say that a 10 year old boat is going to lose a third of its value from new? This means that in the example above the new boat at £62000 is likely to lose £20000 in 10 years time but we will have had the benefit of having a new boat without any corrosion issues etc. Would the depreciation on the older boat have levelled out by now so we could still expect a similar return when we come to get our next boat (this will be the first boat we have owned so fully expect to learn what we thought we wanted in a boat turns out to be wrong so will want to sell it).

Would appreciate your thoughts and suggestions.

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Welcome to CWDF.

If you have not had a boat before, I'd suggest that good second-hand is the way to go, so that you can discover what you like and don't like about hull style, engine, fit-out and so on.

The pricing of boats has been the subject of much comment in these pages of late, and it is probably fair to say that some of us are just as mystified as you are. However, remember that is one thing to attach a particular price to a boat, and quite another thing to persuade a customer to pay that price.

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3 minutes ago, Athy said:

Welcome to CWDF.

If you have not had a boat before, I'd suggest that good second-hand is the way to go, so that you can discover what you like and don't like about hull style, engine, fit-out and so on.

The pricing of boats has been the subject of much comment in these pages of late, and it is probably fair to say that some of us are just as mystified as you are. However, remember that is one thing to attach a particular price to a boat, and quite another thing to persuade a customer to pay that price.

You say that but boats keep on selling for what a few years ago would be considered "silly" money.:unsure:

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9 minutes ago, enandess said:

As we search for our boat I am increasingly bewildered by the price of differing boats. I understand how the various 'brands' and fitouts will affect the price, but, as an example, when I see a new boat costing less than a 10 year old boat, is the price differential between one and the other really that justified?

www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=559080

www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=560404

We are no where near experts although we have done lots of research, and we are getting stuck on the new versus used issue. With a budget of around £60,000 is it better to go for a new boat from a less known builder but still with some type of warranty or is it better to go with an older boat from a favoured builder? Looking at the maths would it be fair to say that a 10 year old boat is going to lose a third of its value from new? This means that in the example above the new boat at £62000 is likely to lose £20000 in 10 years time but we will have had the benefit of having a new boat without any corrosion issues etc. Would the depreciation on the older boat have levelled out by now so we could still expect a similar return when we come to get our next boat (this will be the first boat we have owned so fully expect to learn what we thought we wanted in a boat turns out to be wrong so will want to sell it).

Would appreciate your thoughts and suggestions.

You will lose money on a new boat. You immediately lose the VAT and the fact that one minute after purchase it is secondhand. Buy a sensible KNOWN builder a few years old at a sensible price and you will  retain or gain on its resale price. I am on my eigth boat I  sold six of the previous seven for more than I paid for them of course upkeep to keep them in good order does not come cheap.

Just now, Naughty Cal said:

You say that but boats keep on selling for what a few years ago would be considered "silly" money.:unsure:

I agree. Boats like houses continue to rise in price almost hourly.

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Have a look at (physically not virtually) a lot of boats in your price range and below/above and then you will soon know what you want and what price/condition a boat is worth.

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What you need to factor in is that a new boat of, say, 57' could cost anywhere between about £70k and £170k.  Maybe more.  So a five year old £170k boat will still be worth a heck of a lot more than £70k, if it's been well looked after.  Quality and condition count for a lot and often more than age.

Look at it this way:  houses generally don't depreciate, in fact they increase in value.  cars depreciate massively for the first 20 years or so.  boats do not depreciate like cars but their values gently slip over many years.

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2 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

What you need to factor in is that a new boat of, say, 57' could cost anywhere between about £70k and £170k.  Maybe more.  So a five year old £170k boat will still be worth a heck of a lot more than £70k, if it's been well looked after.  Quality and condition count for a lot and often more than age.

Probably the simplest and clearest explanation possible.

To add my variation :

A 5 year old Rolls Royce will be worth more than a new Nissan 'squiggly'.

Both will get you from A-B, both will consume petrol and both will cost 'lots of £'s' in maintenance and running costs.

What's the difference then ?

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Probably the simplest and clearest explanation possible.

To add my variation :

A 5 year old Rolls Royce will be worth more than a new Nissan 'squiggly'.

Both will get you from A-B, both will consume petrol and both will cost 'lots of £'s' in maintenance and running costs.

What's the difference then ?

The Nissan won't break down?

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Thanks for your comments thus far... I did think about including an analogy between a Rolls Royce and Ford Focus in my original post but decided not to. ;) From your comments it would seem that there is no definitive answer to the question... maybe it's a 'how long is a piece of string' question?!? I know I have certainly seen quite a rise in overall pricing since we started our research a year ago or so with some prices making me think the world has gone mad.

We had originally thought we would go down the decent second hand route for the reasons mentioned, but when we started seeing the disparity in prices it made us think again. As Athy pointed out, the true test of what something is worth is the price someone is prepared to pay for it. I am not totally convinced paying top dollar for a boat with a particular badge on it is worth the extra. However, I do think paying top dollar for reliability is worth it.

So this brings me back to where I started I guess. If 2 boats have the same engine, made from the same grade of steel etc, I am not yet convinced for me, paying an extra £50,000 is worth it simply to have a brand attached to the boat. That said, I suspect from what I have read elsewhere, that this torturous brain wringing will count for nothing when we see *the* boat and it is what it is as we hand over the cheque (or carrier bag full of dosh!).

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1 hour ago, enandess said:

So this brings me back to where I started I guess. If 2 boats have the same engine, made from the same grade of steel etc, I am not yet convinced for me, paying an extra £50,000 is worth it simply to have a brand attached to the boat.

 

You are still writing like someone who hasn't seen many (or any) boats in the flesh.

Have you actually spent a weekend or three out and about, viewing lots of boats? If not, you really, REALLY need to. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, enandess said:

As we search for our boat I am increasingly bewildered by the price of differing boats. I understand how the various 'brands' and fitouts will affect the price, but, as an example, when I see a new boat costing less than a 10 year old boat, is the price differential between one and the other really that justified?

www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=559080

www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=560404

We are no where near experts although we have done lots of research, and we are getting stuck on the new versus used issue. With a budget of around £60,000 is it better to go for a new boat from a less known builder but still with some type of warranty or is it better to go with an older boat from a favoured builder? Looking at the maths would it be fair to say that a 10 year old boat is going to lose a third of its value from new? This means that in the example above the new boat at £62000 is likely to lose £20000 in 10 years time but we will have had the benefit of having a new boat without any corrosion issues etc. Would the depreciation on the older boat have levelled out by now so we could still expect a similar return when we come to get our next boat (this will be the first boat we have owned so fully expect to learn what we thought we wanted in a boat turns out to be wrong so will want to sell it).

Would appreciate your thoughts and suggestions.

Are you comparing the two boats you have listed, nether is new, the second only a year old has a rusting hull, compare the bathrooms,one fully tiled and one plane ply. look at the galley in the first. I can't see a photo second. but just compare the bedrooms. I don't know how much this boat would have been new but it would have been moored than its offered for today

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I think the advice to just get out and looking at boats is the best advice here. Don't get hung up on the price. The right boat will find you. 

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14 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

I think the advice to just get out and looking at boats is the best advice here. Don't get hung up on the price. The right boat will find you. 

It will indeed :-)

 

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6 hours ago, enandess said:

With a budget of around £60,000 is it better to go for a new boat from a less known builder but still with some type of warranty or is it better to go with an older boat from a favoured builder?

Neither. Go with the boat that chooses you. 

For instance, of the two you gave examples of, the first one was head and shoulders above the second one to my eye. 

As long as the boat has been well maintained (your survey will help here) then age isn’t necessarily a factor. 

Forget the warranty aspect. I’d rather have a boat where any teething issues were ironed out years ago than have to deal with them myself, negotiating with the builder, waiting for someone to arrive, waiting for parts...

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2 hours ago, WotEver said:

Go with the boat that chooses you. 

Oddly enough I think that may have happened to me without it being apparent at the time  - twice . 

 

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9 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

The Nissan won't break down?

That may be true, but Rolls-Royces never, ever, break down. However, in the words of the R-R factory, occasionally they may "fail to proceed" instead!

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15 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

Have you actually spent a weekend or three out and about, viewing lots of boats? If not, you really, REALLY need to. 

We have been to see a fair number - up in the double digits - but this was more to get a flavour of what we wanted rather than intending to buy

 

 

15 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Are you comparing the two boats you have listed, nether is new, the second only a year old has a rusting hull, compare the bathrooms,one fully tiled and one plane ply. look at the galley in the first. I can't see a photo second. but just compare the bedrooms. I don't know how much this boat would have been new but it would have been moored than its offered for today

I agree, they are very different. Now that we are actively looking, I am trying to get my head around what it is that makes boat A worth X pounds more than boat B. From people's comments, it would seem that there is quite a premium added on for perceived quality and condition.

 

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to add your thoughts. We are finding out quite quickly that there never seems to be a clear cut answer to our questions but instead varying degrees of opinion as to what the right answer is. :) I think, as mentioned by others here and elsewhere, we will know the right boat when we come across it and age, price will be an irrelevance; much like buying a house, you just know which one is the right one.

We will be getting ourselves out and about over the coming weeks/months... hopefully the boat finds us sooner rather than later!

 

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13 minutes ago, enandess said:

I agree, they are very different. Now that we are actively looking, I am trying to get my head around what it is that makes boat A worth X pounds more than boat B. From people's comments, it would seem that there is quite a premium added on for perceived quality and condition.

I'm not sure I'd agree with the 'perceived quality and condition'.

There is little 'perception'

Quality is quite obvious to see in many areas - Is the hull and topsides steel  'straight' or 'wrinkly', look at the welds along the hull (are they ground down, or left 'proud'), look at the lines of the Hull and the design of the Swim, look at the quality of the fit out - is it wood or chipboard ? quality of the joints ? etc. Look at the quality of the 'fittings' (is it a cheap plastic 'caravan' sink in the bathroom, quality of the mooring cleats etc)

Condition is quite obvious - Does the boat 'smell' ? (Damp, Dog, etc). Look in areas such as the engine 'ole - is it dry, painted and could you eat your lunch off the floor ?, look at the condition of the cooker & hob, are they clean and well cared for. Is there a 'full-suite' of receipts for engine maintenance , blacking, etc.

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When I was buying I spent several months belting around the country on my motorbike looking at all sorts of boats. Apart from giving me a good idea of what's out there, it was fun.

To be honest I had no intention of buying during my first year of searching - I was going to take my time, carefully consider all the options and then eventually make a reasoned decision.

HA, not a chance, the boat found me (with the help of Venetian Marina) and I had five happy years cruising.

cobweb-2.jpg

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14 minutes ago, manxmike said:

When I was buying I spent several months belting around the country on my motorbike looking at all sorts of boats. Apart from giving me a good idea of what's out there, it was fun.

To be honest I had no intention of buying during my first year of searching - I was going to take my time, carefully consider all the options and then eventually make a reasoned decision.

HA, not a chance, the boat found me (with the help of Venetian Marina) and I had five happy years cruising.

cobweb-2.jpg

Sounds kinda familiar. I was passing a marina just after going to view a new motorbike for sale. Popped in for a coffee and half hour later had brought a boat instead. They sneak up on you ! 

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I have no idea who DP bridgeman Boatbuilders are.  OK, I could look it up, but without doing so, I am still confident they will not have built many shells.  They are certainly not one of the recognised quality" brands.

Mike Christian on the other hand is a known quantity, generally reckoned to be above the average.

The Christian boat has pleasing lines - by comparison the newer boat looks like a slab sided box.

I have not delved deeply, but the internal pictures clearly show two very different qualities of fit out.

Have you actually looked at both these boats in the flesh?  If so, what are your lasting impressions of the quality of each?

I's suggest you will not buy a new (or nearly new) boat of decent quality for anything like your £60K-ish budget.  It will be a "cheapie" at that price.  Buying a cecond hand one for similar money should allow you something that is better built, and just "feels" far nicer,

(I've not studied your examples in detail to know if either are good or poor buys - but I have looked enough to see you are not close to comparing like with like).
 

 

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Be careful of that shiny new boat from a well known builder, it’s worth having a closer look as corners are often cut when people can live off a “name”. 

Are the cabin sides lovely and straight because there’s no framing behind them? The welds ground and polished to half their original strength? And there’s no point having decent length swims then sticking an egg whisk prop on because it’s cheaper and the customer won’t know the difference anyway.. 

 

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10 minutes ago, noddyboater said:

The welds ground and polished to half their original strength?

A quality (proper) weld is the joining of two plates into a 'single piece', the addition of an external 'snail trail' (or blobs of duck poop in my case) adds nothing to the integrity and just shows how poor the standard of welding is.

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56 minutes ago, manxmike said:

When I was buying I spent several months belting around the country on my motorbike looking at all sorts of boats. Apart from giving me a good idea of what's out there, it was fun.

To be honest I had no intention of buying during my first year of searching - I was going to take my time, carefully consider all the options and then eventually make a reasoned decision.

HA, not a chance, the boat found me (with the help of Venetian Marina) and I had five happy years cruising.

cobweb-2.jpg

We were on our way to place an order on a brand new budget river cruiser when we called into a marina for a break and a cup of coffee. 

They had a used boat show that day. So we looked at a couple of boats, instantly doubled our budget and bought a 5 year old sports cruiser we knew nothing about but it shouted out it was the one for us.

Mind you we have had it for 10 years now so it can't have been a bad choice.

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For the OP its usualy better going with a well known shell maker even if the shell is budget or mid range. Colecraft springs to mind they are very very well established for many years and not crap and not posh but a good build sort of the Ford mondeo of the waterways. Liverpool/collingwood are a budget shell but still a well known builder who have put plenty of people on the water.There are several more top end builds but remember that yes they are good but much of the initial extra oiutlay is often due to the extra man hours involved to produce the " pretty " hull design. Also be careful of you layout. Standard layouts may well sound boring but as a for instance plonk your bedroom at the front of the boat and you reduce the amount of folks wanting it if you need to sell as more people like bow doors open on sunny  days into living area. Gas free boats :rolleyes:  that will ensure you will have to find the proverbial needle in a haystack buyer if you come to selling time. Remember when u see ads from many brokers extolling the virtue of " New washing machine " " Microwave " etc etc that such items cost in the greater scheme of things peanuts to replace and should not influence your boat buying decision.

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