4LW fuel pump

[jenevers]

Is there any way to date my fuel pump Number TA156?

and does anyone know what the numbers.  -10, -8, -10 & -14  mean (under each of the 4 levers)?

[RLWP]

Can you post pictures?

[jenevers]

1 hour ago, RLWP said:

Can you post pictures?

Will do tomorrow.

[jenevers]

As promised. Also what does “ K” stand for?

Edited April 8, 2018 by jenevers

[RLWP]

'K' might be to identify that the parts belong to the same pump. There's another K on the extra fuel thingy

Don't know about the numbers, perhaps fuel pipe length?

Richard

I think TA is June 1959: http://www.stationary-engine.co.uk/CAV-Injection/CAVDate.htm

Richard

[jonesthenuke]

3 hours ago, RLWP said:

'K' might be to identify that the parts belong to the same pump. There's another K on the extra fuel thingy

Don't know about the numbers, perhaps fuel pipe length?

Richard

I think TA is June 1959: http://www.stationary-engine.co.uk/CAV-Injection/CAVDate.htm

Richard

Is the K related to the K stamps on injectors?

Thanks for the dating chart, I have a spare pump marked BK so it seems to be a comparatively youthful 1992.

[RLWP]

I really don't know. I can imagine stamping K on a set of parts if I were building up multiple pumps. I can't see it being necessary to stamp a set of pumps and injectors - they won't stay together forever

[jenevers]

Excellent info.

So the pumps were made by CAV not Gardner?

5 hours ago, RLWP said:

 

Don't know about the numbers, perhaps fuel pipe length?

Richard

I’ll compare the two marked -10 to see if they’re the same.

[RLWP]

Yes. Gardner (and Lister (and many others)) made engines, not fuel pumps/injectors/filters/bearings. They are standard CAV pumps with an extra fuel thingy that I have only seen on Gardners. Incidentally, this is a Good Thing if you ever need them reconditioning or replacing

Strangely Ruston Hornsby made injectors, and they are not good

Richard

[jenevers]

2 minutes ago, RLWP said:

Yes. Gardner (and Lister (and many others)) made engines, not fuel pumps/injectors/filters/bearings. They are standard CAV pumps with an extra fuel thingy that I have only seen on Gardners. Incidentally, this is a Good Thing if you ever need them reconditioning or replacing

Strangely Ruston Hornsby made injectors, and they are not good

Richard

Interesting. Another thing I’ve learned, thanks.

Just as a matter of interest, I believe that Mitsubishi manufacture every single part of their engines, even down to the bolts.

[RLWP]

39 minutes ago, jenevers said:

Interesting. Another thing I’ve learned, thanks.

Just as a matter of interest, I believe that Mitsubishi manufacture every single part of their engines, even down to the bolts.

Bet they don't. It would be a very unusual way of running a modern engineering company

Now, how to prove that... I have a pair of Mitsubishi injectors out for checking. If they need parts, let's see where they come from

Richard

[system 4-50]

Its a bit difficult to say who Mitsubishi is!  

Wiki:

"The Mitsubishi Group is made up of about 40 individual companies with no controlling parent company. Each of the Mitsubishi companies owns substantial (but usually not controlling) portions of the shares of the others.

Twenty-nine of the group companies participate in the Friday Conference (金曜会Kinyō-kai), a luncheon meeting of their most senior executives held on the second Friday of each month. The group began its tradition of monthly executive meetings in 1952, and over time the meetings became a venue for coordinating policy between the group companies."

Products	Mining, shipbuilding, telecom, financial services, insurance, electronics, automotive, construction, heavy industries, oil and gas, real estate, foods and beverages, chemicals, steel, aviation and others

Edited April 9, 2018 by system 4-50

[BEngo]

Unusually for an engine company Gardner did not use bought in injectors (aka sprayers) from Bryce,  CAV et al.  They had them made to Gardner designs. I was with the company that made some in the mid 90s for I think the batch of 2LW 's made about then.

 

Bergius made their own injector bodies for the Kelvin diesel models K, J and L but bought the nozzles from CAV.

N

[Split Pin]

The "K" refers to a change of specification which occurred in 1952 and indicates that the pump has been set to the later standard and should be used with sprayers that also meet the changed standard.

The pump phasing was changed and the spring pressure for the sprayers was increased from 55lbs to 61.5 lbs. Previously sprayers were marked "E or E1"

Gardner's only used the CAV  Body, BPF pump elements, delivery valves  and control rack etc. All the other parts were of Gardner manufacture and assembly. The pumps were built and calibrated in house.

Gardner's originally made there own sprayers in house, the design changed very little from the first L2 "E" Type version (1929) to the latter type used in the LXC (1980's)

Steve

[jenevers]

On 10/04/2018 at 00:19, Split Pin said:

The "K" refers to a change of specification which occurred in 1952 and indicates that the pump has been set to the later standard and should be used with sprayers that also meet the changed standard.

The pump phasing was changed and the spring pressure for the sprayers was increased from 55lbs to 61.5 lbs. Previously sprayers were marked "E or E1"

Gardner's only used the CAV  Body, BPF pump elements, delivery valves  and control rack etc. All the other parts were of Gardner manufacture and assembly. The pumps were built and calibrated in house.

Gardner's originally made there own sprayers in house, the design changed very little from the first L2 "E" Type version (1929) to the latter type used in the LXC (1980's)

Steve

Hmm interesting. My engine was built in 1945 so this pump isn’t original then. Is there a mark on the sprayers, that I could check for compatibility?

[Split Pin]

There will be K stamped on the sprayer body, all sprayers that were reconditioned by the factory or a dealer were automatically modified. Its unlikely that yours haven't already been done.

The change was made along with a modified piston design, and some different parts in the governor, this lead to a 10 % increase in power and smoother slow speed running,

[jenevers]

10 hours ago, Split Pin said:

There will be K stamped on the sprayer body, all sprayers that were reconditioned by the factory or a dealer were automatically modified. Its unlikely that yours haven't already been done.

The change was made along with a modified piston design, and some different parts in the governor, this lead to a 10 % increase in power and smoother slow speed running,

So will this “K” be visible if I remove the cylinder head covers?

If my sprayers haven’t been modified is it worth the hassle of having the work done for a canal boat?

Edited April 11, 2018 by jenevers

[Split Pin]

Maybe, they are sometimes stamped on the top face between the pipe unions, most though are stamped on the side as on the left and wont be visible without taking one out. The one on the right started of as an "E" type.

If they haven't been done then no its not really worth disturbing them. The absence of the "K"  doesn't mean that they aren't to the later spec, if an Independent   re conditioner has worked on them they may have used the later setting without marking them.

As the rating plate doesn't have the engine number stamped on it would suggest that it has been worked on by an independent at some time in its life. Also the fact that the pump is stamped then it would seem logical that the sprayers would have been done at the same time.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Split Pin

[jenevers]

1 hour ago, Split Pin said:

Maybe, they are sometimes stamped on the top face between the pipe unions, most though are stamped on the side as on the left and wont be visible without taking one out. The one on the right started of as an "E" type.

If they haven't been done then no its not really worth disturbing them. The absence of the "K"  doesn't mean that they aren't to the later spec, if an Independent   re conditioner has worked on them they may have used the later setting without marking them.

As the rating plate doesn't have the engine number stamped on it would suggest that it has been worked on by an independent at some time in its life. Also the fact that the pump is stamped then it would seem logical that the sprayers would have been done at the same time.

Thanks for the info. I’ll have a look tomorrow .:

[martyn 1]

On 4/7/2018 at 16:15, jenevers said:

and does anyone know what the numbers.  -10, -8, -10 & -14  mean (under each of the 4 levers)?

And to add to the detailed response from Split Pin the -10, -8 etc are marks by a re conditioner for how many thou the tappet adjustment needs to be altered from how it would be set following the Gardner instructions to obtain correct phasing. This is usually due to wear on the cup tappets within the pump that isn't compensated for if you follow Gardner's instructions for pump phasing. 

[jenevers]

On 18/04/2018 at 16:34, martyn 1 said:

And to add to the detailed response from Split Pin the -10, -8 etc are marks by a re conditioner for how many thou the tappet adjustment needs to be altered from how it would be set following the Gardner instructions to obtain correct phasing. This is usually due to wear on the cup tappets within the pump that isn't compensated for if you follow Gardner's instructions for pump phasing. 

You had me worried for a minute. At first, I thought you meant the tappets in the cylinder heads.