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painting narrowboat


tomryangericks

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Data sheet here:http://www.smlprotectivecoatings.co.uk/files/library/files/DATA_SHEETS/Conseal_TU_data.pdf

It does class the paint as acrylic which to me is confusing, as the acrylic stuff one gets from Screwfix etc is water based.

Still though, it definitely adheres to the old paint - I dripped a bit onto an area I wasn't going over (already top coated in a different colour) and when I wiped it off it took the paint underneath with it!

Its a very easy paint to work with and covers brilliantly.

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2 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

I wont argue with anything you have said, but your use of the word xylene 'based' paint is confusing.

There are two main types of paint, oil based or water based. One uses hydrocarbons as the base,  the other water. Oil based have a high VOC - volotile oil content - and hence there has been a great deal of pressure in the industry to get rid of the high VOCs and hence the introduction of paints containing Oil/water emulsions.

Xylene is just a solvent. Typically it was used in many oil based coatings since the 80's and is being used in many of the low VOC oil/water based coatings. It is used in most epoxy 2 pack systems hence your comment about abraiding is not strictly correct - as these need abraiding. The Jotun coatings you are using obviously contain Xylene as a solvent but these are not xylene based coatings. We need to know what the chemical type is ie Urethane, epoxy, alkyd, cellulose, rather than what the solvent is.

...Ah, that makes sense.

I'm pretty certain  that Hammerite used to be xylene-based.  They changed to a white spirit-type base a few years ago.  The tin used to say you had to use their own thinners to clean brushes but now use white spirit.

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3 hours ago, WotEver said:

I seem to recall (but it might have been a different company) that you had to sign a declaration that you were restoring something historic which ‘had’ to have a red lead coating. 

A quick search shows that red lead paint is not part of the ban that was introduced in 1992 to stop the sale of 'white lead' paint, if wikipedia is to be believed....mmmm?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-based_paint_in_the_United_Kingdom

I can remember all the  paint companies stopping using lead and likely due to the hoops we had to jump through as the Eu REACH requirements came in ......lots and lots of paperwork etc. It looks from the wikipedia link that you can buy Red lead paint without a specialist historic need, so the link provided earlier looks to be quite useful. Personally I would much rather us a good red lead paint as a primer, and particularly in the engine bilge as it probably has the best chance of working on contaminated (water or oil) surfaces. Bit expensive but if you want something to last then this has to be a good option. It is probably also a very good bet for any external steel where you cannot get back to 100% no rust. Just dont let the kids eat it once it is applied.

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Data sheet here:http://www.smlprotectivecoatings.co.uk/files/library/files/DATA_SHEETS/Conseal_TU_data.pdf

It does class the paint as acrylic which to me is confusing, as the acrylic stuff one gets from Screwfix etc is water based.

Still though, it definitely adheres to the old paint - I dripped a bit onto an area I wasn't going over (already top coated in a different colour) and when I wiped it off it took the paint underneath with it!

Its a very easy paint to work with and covers brilliantly.

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On 07/04/2018 at 15:20, Johny London said:

Data sheet here:http://www.smlprotectivecoatings.co.uk/files/library/files/DATA_SHEETS/Conseal_TU_data.pdf

It does class the paint as acrylic which to me is confusing, as the acrylic stuff one gets from Screwfix etc is water based.

Still though, it definitely adheres to the old paint - I dripped a bit onto an area I wasn't going over (already top coated in a different colour) and when I wiped it off it took the paint underneath with it!

Its a very easy paint to work with and covers brilliantly.

 

On 07/04/2018 at 16:19, dor said:

I'm pretty certain  that Hammerite used to be xylene-based.  They changed to a white spirit-type base a few years ago.  The tin used to say you had to use their own thinners to clean brushes but now use white spirit.

It is very easy to get confused over what 'based' means. To a paint chemist, the base is the chemical species used in the paint....ie what is left on the surface once the solvent has evaporated. It is therefore Epoxy, urethane, acrylic, alkyd etc. To someone not expert in painting, they can refer to the 'base' as the solvent which is totally confusing. Xylene is a solvent.

So Johny's paint is an acrylic paint ....that likely uses xylene as one of it cocktail of solvents.....unlike the acrylic based paints he got from Screwfix that probably had an aqueous emulsion (ie white spirit containing) solvent. Usually the hydrocarbon type solvents give better protection for steel than water based....the paints are better!

Hammerite paint is not xylene based. It may have used xylene as a solvent. They have likely switched to using a water emulsion based solvent due to the VOC regulations getting them to reduce organic content. I've just looked at the hammerite site and failed to find what type of paint it is. I guess it must be acrylic but the MSDS sheet does not specify. Very unusual.

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On 07/04/2018 at 13:48, Dr Bob said:

Oil based have a high VOC - volotile oil content

Point of order: Volatile Organic Compounds. 

I made a load of informative videos for a bunch of companies back in the 80’s on this subject. 

I also read “Isaac Asimov’s Book Of Science Facts” in the 70’s (I think that was the title, he dedicated it from ‘The second best writer of science fact’ to Arthur C Clarke, ‘The second best writer of science fiction’!) wherein he explained the problem with CFCs and other VOCs and bemoaned the fact that no-one was doing anything about it. 

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2 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

 

It is very easy to get confused over what 'based' means. To a paint chemist, the base is the chemical species used in the paint....ie what is left on the surface once the solvent has evaporated. It is therefore Epoxy, urethane, acrylic, alkyd etc. To someone not expert in painting, they can refer to the 'base' as the solvent which is totally confusing. Xylene is a solvent.

So Johny's paint is an acrylic paint ....that likely uses xylene as one of it cocktail of solvents.....unlike the acrylic based paints he got from Screwfix that probably had an aqueous emulsion (ie white spirit containing) solvent. Usually the hydrocarbon type solvents give better protection for steel than water based....the paints are better!

Hammerite paint is not xylene based. It may have used xylene as a solvent. They have likely switched to using a water emulsion based solvent due to the VOC regulations getting them to reduce organic content. I've just looked at the hammerite site and failed to find what type of paint it is. I guess it must be acrylic but the MSDS sheet does not specify. Very unusual.

Thanks for that clarification.

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2 hours ago, WotEver said:

Point of order: Volatile Organic Compounds. 

I made a load of informative videos for a bunch of companies back in the 80’s on this subject. 

I also read “Isaac Asimov’s Book Of Science Facts” in the 70’s (I think that was the title, he dedicated it from ‘The second best writer of science fact’ to Arthur C Clarke, ‘The second best writer of science fiction’!) wherein he explained the problem with CFCs and other VOCs and bemoaned the fact that no-one was doing anything about it. 

Point of order : Volatile organic content.

Yes I made a mistake earlier saying oil not organic. You are right as well as VOC can stand for anything with a v,o and c but its normal use now is to define how  much organic material is in say a paint - so it has a VOC of 78% ie a volatile organic content of 78%.

1 hour ago, dor said:

Thanks for that clarification.

No problem.

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On 4/7/2018 at 07:23, rgreg said:

I don't know if you plan to remove the windows but it is a good idea if you can, otherwise rust will probably creep out into your new paintwork eventually.

JUST REMOVED WINDOW  AND RUST BEHIND  THANK YOU

THANK YOU FOLKS  WE DO  THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP   WE CAN NOW MOVE FORWARD

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15 hours ago, tomryangericks said:

JUST REMOVED WINDOW  AND RUST BEHIND  THANK YOU

THANK YOU FOLKS  WE DO  THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP   WE CAN NOW MOVE FORWARD

Good luck with the painting project, very satisfying when complete. 

The one fact I know to be true is to do a good job will take a lot more work and time than you may of envisaged. It is essential to get the primer and undercoats applied correctly, that is where the real work takes place and where care must be taken. The satisfying bit is applying the top coats but if the preparation is wrong then this will show through when the top coats are applied. 

It's possible to see some boats on your travels which on first glance appear to have a nice paint job but as you pass them you might see rust bleeding through. Preparation is everything and pays off long term

I used 3 coats of primer and 2 of undercoat followed by 2 top coats. Get the primer and undercoats right and future maintenence, and even colour changes, are greatly simplified. 

It is very tempting to start applying top coat without good preparation simply because it looks like progress is being made, bad error. How do I know this? 

Second time around I made a much better job of it. 

Edited by reg
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  • 3 weeks later...

I think it is the case that when you see "Red Oxide" paint for sale now, that refers only to the colour, i.e. it is the same red colour that the old lead-based paints were. For example, Screwfix's Red Oxide is actually a really good zinc phosphate primer which is made by Johnstones, an old British company, now part of an international group. Their advice is not to paint when it's 8'C or lower. There is also a lot to be said by choosing both a primer and a top coat produced by the same company so that you really know they will be 100% compatible.

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