painting narrowboat

[tomryangericks]

hi there we have just bought a 45 ft narrowboat  and stripped it back  to bare metal on . we are looking at painting it ourselves  and i am getting totally confused about primer for the ouside  hull and sides  top  can anyone help with good advice  we are new to boating  hired for a lot of years and we decided to take the plunge and  buy our own project 

[Richard10002]

Watch every one of these videos twice, and watch some bits over and over again. At the end of this you will be ready to buy the right gear, the right paint, and do a pretty good job of painting your boat.

http://www.johnbarnard.biz/tips-tricks-videos/

[Bee]

Preparation, the bits that deteriorate first after you have painted it are the awkward, tricky, difficult to reach bits that are oh so tempting to not bother with overmuch. These are the bits to spend most time and effort on, the bits where rust starts, handrail brackets, window edges, rough welds in corners, all those time consuming places. That's my experience anyway, also I try to never paint the whole boat in one go, This summer I will probably do the front and back 'bulkheads' next year all the fiddly bits, then after that maybe the sides, that way the boat always looks reasonably good. Might not be professional but it works for me.

[tomryangericks]

cheers 

[Sea Dog]

Whatever you do, don't strip it back to bare metal until you know what you're going to do next....

Oh, wait a minute...  

[bizzard]

Zinc phosphate primer takes a lot of beating.

[Dr Bob]

Don't apply any paint until the temperature is above the dew point and I will never apply paint below 15C. Watch out though when you paint the sunny side of the boat as temperatures can then get far too high. Don't paint the top coat on a windy day as it will be covered in dust and grass. It is still far too cold at the moment to think about exterior painting unless you are in a boat shed. Leave it a month. Oh no, you say you have stripped it back already!

[Quaysider]

Having spent a while painting vintage fairground rides (mainly over winter) - get it into primer and undercoat ASAP...  don't worry too much about top coat until it warms up a bit...  I'm no expert but sand it down early mooring (one side at a time, and keep a wet edge as you work your way down/up the boat (as in left to right or right to left)  and do one side at a time -leave a day, turn it round and do the other side... and repeat... rubbing down between DRY coats as necessary... 

[system 4-50]

For outdoor painting you need to choose the right time of year:

• Jan - too cold
• Feb - too cold
• Mar - too cold
• Apr - too wet/windy/cold
• May - too much pollen, bugs
• Jun - too hot
• Jul - too wet
• Aug - too showery
• Sep - sometimes good
• Oct - too many leaves
• Nov - too cold
• Dec - too cold

 

[jonathanA]

As biz says zinc phosphate primer

or red oxide primer available from engineering suppliers in 5 litre or larger tins. 

Im a big fan of craft master paints not cheap but worth the extra in my opinion for what that’s worth !! 

[rgreg]

I don't know if you plan to remove the windows but it is a good idea if you can, otherwise rust will probably creep out into your new paintwork eventually.

[dave moore]

If you have bare metalled the boat already, be aware that surface rust can form again and needs removing prior to priming. Some of the painters I work with use Rustoleum primers to minimise the risk of micro blistering. In their opinion, zinc phosphate is not what it used to be. Good luck!

[Dr Bob]

37 minutes ago, dave moore said:

If you have bare metalled the boat already, be aware that surface rust can form again and needs removing prior to priming. Some of the painters I work with use Rustoleum primers to minimise the risk of micro blistering. In their opinion, zinc phosphate is not what it used to be. Good luck!

Red lead was the best primer by a mile. Sadly no longer available. The red oxides of today are nowhere near as good. Health and safety has ruined too many paint systems.

[David Mack]

23 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Red lead was the best primer by a mile. Sadly no longer available. The red oxides of today are nowhere near as good. Health and safety has ruined too many paint systems.

http://www.traditionalboatsupplies.com

[Dr Bob]

4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

http://www.traditionalboatsupplies.com

That's the way to do it. I think it is illegal to sell paints containing read lead BUT red lead powder can be bought...and in this case red lead paste. I hadn't realized that. For someone skilled in the art, it isn't difficult to formulate a paint with the red lead paste (or powder) based on linseed oil plus other additives. Plenty of recipes on tinternet but you need a proper high shear mixer to get it mixed. A prop on the end of a power drill will not be good enough.

I doubt the 'paints' from this lot will be proper red lead paints but if they are then that's a big step forward. Don't confuse red lead with red oxide. Chalk and cheese. I will spend a bit of time looking through this site and maybe give them a call. Thanks for the link.

[WotEver]

36 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I think it is illegal to sell paints containing read lead...

They appear to sell it. It’s certainly not cheap at £120 for 2.5l though...

http://www.traditionalboatsupplies.com/consumables/leadbasedproducts/red-lead-paint

38 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I doubt the 'paints' from this lot will be proper red lead paints...

Truly?

[Richard10002]

2 hours ago, dave moore said:

If you have bare metalled the boat already, be aware that surface rust can form again and needs removing prior to priming. Some of the painters I work with use Rustoleum primers to minimise the risk of micro blistering. In their opinion, zinc phosphate is not what it used to be. Good luck!

Could they just give it a coat of vactan or fertan? If not, why not

 

[Dr Bob]

21 minutes ago, WotEver said:

They appear to sell it. It’s certainly not cheap at £120 for 2.5l though...

http://www.traditionalboatsupplies.com/consumables/leadbasedproducts/red-lead-paint

Truly?

Selling paint containing red lead was banned in the 80's which is why everyone took it out of their paints and tried to find alternatives. Not had the time yet to look at the site but maybe this lot have found a way round the 'old' rules - or maybe the rules have been relaxed. If it is truly red lead (with a decent amount of it in) I will buy a tin to do our roof and engine bilge this year.

[Dr Bob]

12 hours ago, system 4-50 said:

For outdoor painting you need to choose the right time of year:

• Jan - too cold
• Feb - too cold
• Mar - too cold
• Apr - too wet/windy/cold
• May - too much pollen, bugs
• Jun - too hot
• Jul - too wet
• Aug - too showery
• Sep - sometimes good
• Oct - too many leaves
• Nov - too cold
• Dec - too cold

 

Although tongue in cheek, the above is the challenge to painting in the UK. However there are some times when it is better to paint. When it is cold and wet, there is a very good chance that the surface will be damp as you apply the primer and hence it will not stick (adhere) to the substrate. A job that should last 15 years will therefore likely only make 3-5 years. Painting in winter and spring is not a good idea because it is very difficult to make sure the surface is dry. From May onwards, when it warms up the main problem is not so much adhesion to substrate but more the weather affecting the 'look' of the paint, ie bits in it, too fast drying causing alligator skin etc. This can be more a cosmetic issue and paint jobs can last a long time if the adhesion is good although the top coats are a barrier and have to be intact.

[Johny London]

All good advice. Coming at a slightly different angle, I would like to suggest using Xylene based paint. It behaves exactly like the old car paint (if you have ever had a go with rattle cans), but you will be rollering it on with no brushing afterwards.

The paint I used was by Jotun, from SML paints. I tried oil based first and was very frustrated with the impossible drying times (slowing down the work and allowing greater contamination by bits in the air) and also the very soft finish. Also as we all know from painting windows and doors etc oils tend to dry out and crack over the years - I'm prolly in a minority here but would never put oil paint on my boat again.

Getting back to the Xylene - as I said it is just like the old cellulose, looks and smells similar and dries pretty quick. You can do everything (even fiddly bits) with just the roller (4") and by the time you have painted a side and had a cup of tea it is ready for you to go back over. Alternatively if you don't get finished there is non of of this rubbing down nonsense - even the next year the new paint will bond straight on - the solvent in it is quite strong and seems to reactivate the old paint (although by all means if leaving it over winter do scrub down nice and clean first!).

I've done 2 coats just with the roller, so far, and this year I intend to do two more, so I will have a very thick layer, then I'm going to either use a rubbing compound or a fine wet and dry to smooth the surface - ok so some extra work but if you don't fancy that the roller finish looks pretty ok anyway - at least it is very consistent rather than odd brush marks here and there.

I used the "Conceal" from Jotun, as it is quite thick, so if you buy a big thinner (5l) you have the option to thin a little if you want. If not they do a similar top coat that is ready to go.

Have you really gotten all the way back down to bare metal? A term often used but rarely achieved from what I have seen. The Xylene will go over oil paint ok - it doesn't cause blistering as cellulose would.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Johny London

[Johny London]

PS: forgot to say, Jotun of course do a suitable undercoat, which in my case I went over what I believe was a basic grey primer of the cellulose type.

[Ex Brummie]

15 hours ago, bizzard said:

Zinc phosphate primer takes a lot of beating.

Great for corrosion protection, but beware of your next paints as many don't adhere to zinc without a mordant solution being applied.

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

Selling paint containing red lead was banned in the 80's which is why everyone took it out of their paints and tried to find alternatives. Not had the time yet to look at the site but maybe this lot have found a way round the 'old' rules...

I seem to recall (but it might have been a different company) that you had to sign a declaration that you were restoring something historic which ‘had’ to have a red lead coating. 

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, Johny London said:

All good advice. Coming at a slightly different angle, I would like to suggest using Xylene based paint. It behaves exactly like the old car paint (if you have ever had a go with rattle cans), but you will be rollering it on with no brushing afterwards.

The paint I used was by Jotun, from SML paints. I tried oil based first and was very frustrated with the impossible drying times (slowing down the work and allowing greater contamination by bits in the air) and also the very soft finish. Also as we all know from painting windows and doors etc oils tend to dry out and crack over the years - I'm prolly in a minority here but would never put oil paint on my boat again.

Getting back to the Xylene - as I said it is just like the old cellulose, looks and smells similar and dries pretty quick. You can do everything (even fiddly bits) with just the roller (4") and by the time you have painted a side and had a cup of tea it is ready for you to go back over. Alternatively if you don't get finished there is non of of this rubbing down nonsense - even the next year the new paint will bond straight on - the solvent in it is quite strong and seems to reactivate the old paint (although by all means if leaving it over winter do scrub down nice and clean first!).

I've done 2 coats just with the roller, so far, and this year I intend to do two more, so I will have a very thick layer, then I'm going to either use a rubbing compound or a fine wet and dry to smooth the surface - ok so some extra work but if you don't fancy that the roller finish looks pretty ok anyway - at least it is very consistent rather than odd brush marks here and there.

I used the "Conceal" from Jotun, as it is quite thick, so if you buy a big thinner (5l) you have the option to thin a little if you want. If not they do a similar top coat that is ready to go.

Have you really gotten all the way back down to bare metal? A term often used but rarely achieved from what I have seen. The Xylene will go over oil paint ok - it doesn't cause blistering as cellulose would.

I wont argue with anything you have said, but your use of the word xylene 'based' paint is confusing.

There are two main types of paint, oil based or water based. One uses hydrocarbons as the base,  the other water. Oil based have a high VOC - volotile oil content - and hence there has been a great deal of pressure in the industry to get rid of the high VOCs and hence the introduction of paints containing Oil/water emulsions.

Xylene is just a solvent. Typically it was used in many oil based coatings since the 80's and is being used in many of the low VOC oil/water based coatings. It is used in most epoxy 2 pack systems hence your comment about abraiding is not strictly correct - as these need abraiding. The Jotun coatings you are using obviously contain Xylene as a solvent but these are not xylene based coatings. We need to know what the chemical type is ie Urethane, epoxy, alkyd, cellulose, rather than what the solvent is.

12 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I seem to recall (but it might have been a different company) that you had to sign a declaration that you were restoring something historic which ‘had’ to have a red lead coating. 

...Ah, that makes sense.

[Neil Smith]

If you are down to bare steel then I would wipe it over with panel wipe then use a 2 pack primer, it will dry very fast so you can get another coat on the same day.

Neil