C&RT Seize Pensioners Boat 27th March

[frahkn]

18 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

Caring doesn't pay the bills. 

If this guys friends had cared so much about him then they would have helped him long before his boat was taken away. As it stands they have just chucked a few quid in the pot each to scratch together enough funds to get this guy afloat again. That isn't caring for him. In 18 months time this guy will be going through the same process and having this boat taken away. His "friends" leaving him in exactly the same position.

It isn't up to CRT to provide this guy with social care or help. They are a navigation authority not a housing or mental health organisation. 

So where is your proof of this?

[Athy]

4 minutes ago, frahkn said:

So where is your proof of this?

It's akin to a weather forecast: a prediction of what may well happen in the future, but which might not.

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, frahkn said:

So where is your proof of this?

I am not sure how you would go about proving something that is going to happen at some time in the future.

[Murflynn]

why would anybody think for a moment that providing this guy with a replacement boat (and ensuring it was initially taxed, tested and insured) will cure his inability to comply in the future (whether such inability is a result of depression, other mental illness or just bloody mindedness)?   As others have said, unless his 'friends' take him under their wing, he will repeat the process.  That is how life works.  Asking for proof or whatever is just empty polemic.

maybe, just maybe, this guy thinks he is the waterborne version of 'travellers' who consider they have a right to use all the amenities provided both by nature and by the authorities without complying with the law or paying their way.  

Edited April 9, 2018 by Murflynn

[Naughty Cal]

13 minutes ago, frahkn said:

So where is your proof of this?

Let me get my crystal ball out.......

[rgreg]

I think one of the problems with our modern day society is that too much emphasis is often focussed on finding excuses for people's wrong doings. Of course help should be provided where appropriate, but all too often excuses and mitigation are used by individuals to avoid their obligations.

[Naughty Cal]

Just now, rgreg said:

I think one of the problems with our modern day society is that too much emphasis is often focussed on finding excuses for people's wrong doings. Of course help should be provided where appropriate, but all too often excuses and mitigation are used by individuals to avoid their obligations.

Agreed.

[Nightwatch]

If this chap had/has been diagnosed with depression, of which there are various forms, then surely social care and other benefits would have been brought into action. If, anyone, is unwell, for whatever reason, and is living in a small, ill equipped vessel, struggling to meet basic needs to live on a boat, then is a boat the best form of accommodation? Only my view of course. Getting him afloat with minimal and possibly temporary finances probably is not the way forward for this chap.

The initial report mentioned he's a pensioner. How old is he beyond 65?

[Arthur Marshall]

32 minutes ago, rgreg said:

I think one of the problems with our modern day society is that too much emphasis is often focussed on finding excuses for people's wrong doings. Of course help should be provided where appropriate, but all too often excuses and mitigation are used by individuals to avoid their obligations.

Yes and no.  You're right about the focus, but the cause of a vast number of assorted wrong doings, and probably in this case, is simply not having enough money.

Those of us old enough to remember a time when you went out to work and earned enough to buy food and pay the rent or mortgage (or, if elderly, on a pension) tend to forget, if we're not careful, that this is not the case today.  Even the black economy has shrunk too much to make up the difference.  In my factory labouring days, all the old guys who had been there years paid their rent, had nice family lives and went abroad for their two weeks every year.  Now, crap pay is subsidised by the government with tax credits, housing benefit etc, and if you aren't capable of navigating (see what i did there?) the paperwork, or, in fact, not on the net, you simply can't get anything. And claiming benefits is much the same, worse if you're old, uneducated etc.  Doesn't matter how capable you are in other ways.

What I'm trying to say is that there is a difference between excuses and reasons.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Arthur Marshall

[Dr Bob]

20 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

If this chap had/has been diagnosed with depression, of which there are various forms, then surely social care and other benefits would have been brought into action. 

How wrong can you be!

The national health service is woefully lacking  in being able to treat patients with mental health issues. I know from first hand experience of just what they are incapable of doing. You don't 'look' ill enough so you don't get treatment. It can be as serious as a stroke with residential care required to get medication dosages right but there just aren't the facilities. Thousands of people slip between the cracks of proper care and left to fend for themselves. The councils don't care as it is the national healths responsibility.

Now I don't know the guy involved but the story line could well fit a mental health issue (and not just depression). If it is the case then he would need hospitalized treatment. The CRT would have no way of doing anything other than what they did but the NHS would have to pick up the baton but they are incapable of doing that.

If it is not the case and he is mentally fit then the CRT were right. Unfortunately we do not know the facts so how can we judge?

[Alan de Enfield]

28 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

If this chap had/has been diagnosed with depression, of which there are various forms, then surely social care and other benefits would have been brought into action. If, anyone, is unwell, for whatever reason, and is living in a small, ill equipped vessel, struggling to meet basic needs to live on a boat, then is a boat the best form of accommodation? Only my view of course. Getting him afloat with minimal and possibly temporary finances probably is not the way forward for this chap.

The initial report mentioned he's a pensioner. How old is he beyond 65?

3 or 4 years ago a liveaboard in our marina had a stroke, he made a reasonable recovery but still had difficulty in getting on and off the boat ( a GRP cruiser), after about a year the local council / social services said that if he did not move off the boat then they could no longer provide for him, and if he moved off, he would get a nice fully equipped bungalow for himself and his wife a couple of miles 'up-the-road'.

After many years living on the boat he was very reluctant to move off, but his wife could not really cope with him on board.

They are now 'happily' ensconced in their bungalow.

 

Another couple in the marina have mobility problems, and after a little struggle with the council, their mooring fee, licence and insurance are all paid for.

 

It may not be the same all over the country but my (limited) experience of 'help' is that it is available if asked for.

[Dr Bob]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

3 or 4 years ago a liveaboard in our marina had a stroke, he made a reasonable recovery but still had difficulty in getting on and off the boat ( a GRP cruiser), after about a year the local council / social services said that if he did not move off the boat then they could no longer provide for him, and if he moved off, he would get a nice fully equipped bungalow for himself and his wife a couple of miles 'up-the-road'.

After many years living on the boat he was very reluctant to move off, but his wife could not really cope with him on board.

They are now 'happily' ensconced in their bungalow.

 

Another couple in the marina have mobility problems, and after a little struggle with the council, their mooring fee, licence and insurance are all paid for.

 

It may not be the same all over the country but my (limited) experience of 'help' is that it is available if asked for.

A stroke and mobility. Easy problems to see. An old guy who refuses anything from authority is not easy to understand. Is he really ill? Needs a good doctor to work it out......hence no treatment. I'm not saying this guy needed treatment but if he did for a mental issue then there is little chance of help.

[Nightwatch]

I, also have first hand experience of someone with sever depression. They recieve help via the NHS, it's taken time, and also receives financial benefits. 

I am fully aware that funding from progressive governments have depleted and restricted progress within the NHS, Armed Forces,Police, Education,Social Services and much more. 

The guy in question may well have resisted help even if offered by whoever, and CRT in my experience have been understanding when I have had a need to extend stays on moorings at differing location throughout the system. Illness or not, in my opinion, he has not managed or been helped to manage his situation. It seems the fact is he has lost his boat through not abiding by the basic rules of boat ownership.

[b0atman]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

3 or 4 years ago a liveaboard in our marina had a stroke, he made a reasonable recovery but still had difficulty in getting on and off the boat ( a GRP cruiser), after about a year the local council / social services said that if he did not move off the boat then they could no longer provide for him, and if he moved off, he would get a nice fully equipped bungalow for himself and his wife a couple of miles 'up-the-road'.

After many years living on the boat he was very reluctant to move off, but his wife could not really cope with him on board.

They are now 'happily' ensconced in their bungalow.

 

Another couple in the marina have mobility problems, and after a little struggle with the council, their mooring fee, licence and insurance are all paid for.

 

It may not be the same all over the country but my (limited) experience of 'help' is that it is available if asked for.

That's absolutely great news and well fair, but what if its a single male on a boat ? Yes i have had the Housing benefits for a while when disabled. I cannot see councils doing much for the single male !Or does any one know of cases ?

 

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Nightwatch said:

It seems the fact is he has lost his boat through not abiding by the basic rules of boat ownership.

Pretty fair summary of what happened 

[frahkn]

1 hour ago, Naughty Cal said:

Let me get my crystal ball out.......

I refer you to post 298.

[Ray T]

From my experiences "Care in the community = do it yourself mate."

[Nightwatch]

Boaters in certain parts of the country will remember good old Mr Finch. He was homeless, his decision. Broke into boats, eat drank anything that was available possibly slept and cleaned up after himself. He was offered and at one time persuaded to move into a, very suitable home to many, he soon moved out. There has been much written about Mr Finch, perhaps fable but he just wouldn't and didn't want to accept help. He spent a number of winters in prison, seemingly his choice as he would confess all his wrongdoing when the weather changed. Not stupid our Mr Finch.

[Nightwatch]

3 minutes ago, Ray T said:

From my experiences "Care in the community = do it yourself mate."

Once again a sever lack of funding. This in turn blocks Beds in hospitals as recovering paitients have nowhere to go to be rehabilitated. My wife until recently was in Occupational Therapy in the community. Was always anxious to get people recovering and comfortable home

[Momac]

Social care is and always has been at the expense of the person involved ...unless they have virtually no money.

My mother in-laws care needs have recently increased. Adult social services wanted a fee of something over £400 simply to assess her needs. We are presently doing it ourselves..... or more accurately my wife is providing the care.

[LadyG]

1 minute ago, Nightwatch said:

Boaters in certain parts of the country will remember good old Mr Finch. He was homeless, his decision. Broke into boats, eat drank anything that was available possibly slept and cleaned up after himself. He was offered and at one time persuaded to move into a, very suitable home to many, he soon moved out. There has been much written about Mr Finch, perhaps fable but he just wouldn't and didn't want to accept help. He spent a number of winters in prison, seemingly his choice as he would confess all his wrongdoing when the weather changed. Not stupid our Mr Finch.

Not many people's career choice to be fair: criminality may appear to be the only route for the desperate, but I don't think anyone here would choose prison if they were rendered homeless tomorrow.

[WotEver]

8 minutes ago, frahkn said:

I refer you to post 298.

Which asked for proof of something that had been claimed to have been done - an historical fact (or not). 

[haggis]

While I appreciate that this guy may have had mental health problems the fact that he was described by some of his fellow moorers as a "new age traveller" suggests to me that he was probably well aware of what he was doing (not complying with the conditions of being on a boat on a waterway) but chose not to. I still think that those same friends who had apparently all given him keys to their boats therefore knew him well were very much at fault for not seeing what was going on and stepping in to help. Unless of course, they are also "new age travellers".

haggis

[WotEver]

Why don’t New Age Travellers actually travel?

[TheBiscuits]

Just now, WotEver said:

Why don’t New Age Travellers actually travel?

They are not new, and they don't travel.  Most of them do seem to have aged though!