Number of people

[Minormatt]

Hi guys

Next question, next boat...

Looking at a pretty tidy uptogether one.  Its a 2006 55ft Midway Boats narrowboat and its all uptogether with all the paperwork etc.

The problem is the CIN plate shows 4 people and on occasion we would want up to 6 people on board.

How much of a problem is it?  Would it be possible to get it "uprated" to 6 if so what would be involved?

Thanks

[Boater Sam]

On a 55ft boat, it would make no difference unless you all stand on one end, ignore it.

[Alan de Enfield]

You will have absolutely no problem, until you have a problem and then the insurers will probably say you overloaded it in contravention of the manufacturers RCD rating.

If you want it uprated to 6 people you would have to get a suitably qualified surveyor to witness / undertake the RCD stability and loading tests. and re-issue the documentation.

 

I wouldn't worry - a 55ft NB will carry more than 6 easily.

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

Probably the ventilation requirements are also calculated on 4 people not 6, but unless you are all inside, have the fire flat out all the burners on the cooker on full and all doors and windows shut you shouldn't have a problem

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Probably the ventilation requirements are also calculated on 4 people not 6, but unless you are all inside, have the fire flat out all the burners on the cooker on full and all doors and windows shut you shouldn't have a problem

I have never managed to find any ventilation requirements in the RCD (except for engine ventilation) however, section 6 :

6 STABILITY, BUOYANCY and LOADING
Maximum number of persons
From ER 2.2, the Builders Plate shall include the - number of persons recommended by the manufacturer
for which the boat was designed to carry when underway.
ER 2.2 requires that the manufacturer’s maximum recommended number of persons that the boat is
designed to carry when underway is shown on the Builders Plate, and according to ER 2.5 this number
must also be stated in the Owner’s Manual. This maximum recommended number of persons is also an
important piece of information to be incorporated in the stability and buoyancy calculations.
The maximum number of persons may be limited by either or both, the amount of practical seating
space available or the maximum weight that can be safely carried, both of which need to be applied.

Goes into great detail on how the figures are arrived at and how to work out the stability and buoyancy calculations.

EVEN SEATING IS COVERED :

The harmonised standard BS EN ISO 14946:2001 Maximum Load capacity defines a ‘seat’ as any surface
where a person may sit with minimum dimensions of 400 mm width by 750 mm length, i.e. depth of the
seat plus clear space for legs in front of the seat, and recommends that the width be 500 mm. For cases
where a seat is not provided it defines ‘seating area’ as clear cockpit sole space of area 750 mm by 500
mm for each person. For small boats and dinghies the deck area beside the cockpit may be considered
as the seats.
The maximum recommended number of persons must not exceed the number of seats/seating spaces
available when measured according to these definitions.

[ditchcrawler]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I have never managed to find any ventilation requirements in the RCD (except for engine ventilation) however, section 6 :

6 STABILITY, BUOYANCY and LOADING
Maximum number of persons
From ER 2.2, the Builders Plate shall include the - number of persons recommended by the manufacturer
for which the boat was designed to carry when underway.
ER 2.2 requires that the manufacturer’s maximum recommended number of persons that the boat is
designed to carry when underway is shown on the Builders Plate, and according to ER 2.5 this number
must also be stated in the Owner’s Manual. This maximum recommended number of persons is also an
important piece of information to be incorporated in the stability and buoyancy calculations.
The maximum number of persons may be limited by either or both, the amount of practical seating
space available or the maximum weight that can be safely carried, both of which need to be applied.

Goes into great detail on how the figures are arrived at and how to work out the stability and buoyancy calculations.

EVEN SEATING IS COVERED :

The harmonised standard BS EN ISO 14946:2001 Maximum Load capacity defines a ‘seat’ as any surface
where a person may sit with minimum dimensions of 400 mm width by 750 mm length, i.e. depth of the
seat plus clear space for legs in front of the seat, and recommends that the width be 500 mm. For cases
where a seat is not provided it defines ‘seating area’ as clear cockpit sole space of area 750 mm by 500
mm for each person. For small boats and dinghies the deck area beside the cockpit may be considered
as the seats.
The maximum recommended number of persons must not exceed the number of seats/seating spaces
available when measured according to these definitions.

I was thinking of his Boat safety Cert

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I was thinking of his Boat safety Cert

Does the BSSC now state the maximum number of people allowed on board ?

The BSSC ventilation requirements are 'advisory' only so whilst it could be suggested that 'more is needed' it can do no more than that.

[rusty69]

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Does the BSSC now state the maximum number of people allowed on board ?

The BSSC ventilation requirements are 'advisory' only so whilst it could be suggested that 'more is needed' it can do no more than that.

Ours always gets an advisory that more ventilation is needed, I've been i̶g̶n̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ taking it under advisement for nearly twenty years now. Spose I should do something about it one day.

Edited March 31, 2018 by rusty69

[Scholar Gypsy]

Weird! Of course if you have more than 12 on board you are in a whole different ball game in terms of trip boat regulations, etc etc.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

Weird! Of course if you have more than 12 on board you are in a whole different ball game in terms of trip boat regulations, etc etc.

I don't think that applies to 'private' (non-commercial boats) as our RCD rating is for 14 people on Cat D waters, down to 8 people on Cat A waters.

[tree monkey]

13 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Ours always gets an advisory that more ventilation is needed, I've been i̶g̶n̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ taking it under advisement for nearly twenty years now. Spose I should do something about it one day.

Same here and I will continue to forget to sort it out as well.

 

[Scholar Gypsy]

The MCA website is a bit unclear, but this is the clearest bit I could find. I don't know if "passengers" includes the skipper and crew, I must admit I had assumed not (for a pleasure boat).  https://www.gov.uk/guidance/inland-waterways-types-of-vessels#uk-inland-waterways-pleasure-vessels

"Pleasure boats have very few national rules, as long as they carry no more than 12 passengers. They’d then be considered passenger ships and the relevant rules will apply."

 

PS my boat is so old that I have none of these plates and certificates. Is that something I can legitimately forget about?

Edited March 31, 2018 by Scholar Gypsy

[ditchcrawler]

12 passengers + crew not counting babes in arms. It doesn't say how small the crew has to be

[matty40s]

If you can get 10 people on a day boat (commercial insurance) I am sure you can get more than 4 on a 55ft boat. Part of the commisioning of a new boat is the Tilt test - If there's only 4 people in the boatyard that day, maybe that's why you got 4 on your cert. Aqualines have 5 on most of their plates if thats any help.(more people in Polish boatyard??!!)

[Keeping Up]

Some boat builders limit the number on the plate to the number of fixed sleeping berths, something about it being easier to get the RCD certificate that way but it gives a ridiculously small result. Best to just ignore it.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, matty40s said:

If you can get 10 people on a day boat (commercial insurance) I am sure you can get more than 4 on a 55ft boat. Part of the commisioning of a new boat is the Tilt test - If there's only 4 people in the boatyard that day, maybe that's why you got 4 on your cert. Aqualines have 5 on most of their plates if thats any help.(more people in Polish boatyard??!!)

I once assisted Fox's of March in this, quite un-nerving sitting in a boat on one side and more and more people getting in to join you as the boat heals more and more, just to add I had no idea how stable this boat was or how well ballasted, I wont volunteer again.

[Minormatt]

Thanks guys... its a shame but this boat wasn't right for us... onwards and upwards.

Spotted another and its a private sale so not sure how well that would work survey wise

[Richard10002]

6 minutes ago, Minormatt said:

Spotted another and its a private sale so not sure how well that would work survey wise

What issues do you foresee. You agree a price, subject to survey, get it hauled out and surveyed, haggle a bit, or not at all, or walk away. Similar to a house sale/purchase.

[Rick-n-Jo]

because more would be far too dangerous

[Phil Ambrose]

47 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I once assisted Fox's of March in this, quite un-nerving sitting in a boat on one side and more and more people getting in to join you as the boat heals more and more, just to add I had no idea how stable this boat was or how well ballasted, I wont volunteer again.

A mate of mine had a double decker trip boat on the Broads it looked like a paddle steamer ( named Southern Comfort)

He used to get Jewsons to deliver the appropriate number of 1 yard bags of sand and had a Hiab oik it up to the top deck.

When the test was over the bags were returned to Jewsons along with a suitable drink for those involved.

Phil 

[GRLMK38]

Have you considered purchasing a pre-1998 boat?  The only thing you have to worry about then is the wording of your insurance policy.  Ours makes no reference to the number of people on-board but it does state that the owner shall apply due care and diligence.

[Arthur Marshall]

My 40ft boat, with 23ft cabin, happily slept six in my family days. 

[WotEver]

10 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

My 40ft boat, with 23ft cabin, happily slept six in my family days. 

We had eight (plus two dogs) on little 34ft WotEver several times. The world didn’t end. 

[rusty69]

7 hours ago, WotEver said:

We had eight (plus two dogs) on little 34ft WotEver several times. The world didn’t end. 

WotEver 

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, rusty69 said:

WotEver 

Yes?