narrowboat To new build or to buy old? 60ft narrow, as home

[Queen Mab]

Hi there.

I currently live on a 46ft narrow, built in 1989. I share this with my partner. I would like to get another boat, around 60ft long, for use as a home, and turn the 46ft into a shop.

Theoretically I could have access to £28,000 in the coming year, and would then be able to spend money as the months go on, as I save from work (£500 here and there for various jobs).

The boat would not have to be a live aboard straight away, this can be developed over time. I have been researching space-saving fit out ideas, mainly from community groups dedicated to fitting out vans, which seem to have some very good solutions, much more contemporary than boat fit outs. I'm happy to pay carpenters to make specific wooden furniture with functionality - e.g. tables which fold to the ceiling, seating areas with storage underneath. This would be what I envisage the "£500 here and there" to be for.

My personal opinion is that second hand boats are often over priced, and that a new boat could have the potential to be fitted out as a blank canvas. But perhaps I am being naive about the amount of work involved.

What do you think? Would you buy new, or second hand?

 

New - best builders? What to avoid? What to look out for?

Secondhand - price guideline? What to avoid? Where to look?

[sueb]

For your second boat I would (and did) buy a new hull and engine and fit it out to my own requirements. Buy it in the spring not as we did in the winter. Good luck

[zenataomm]

You're raising many more questions in my head than the ones you're asking.

When you say turn the 46ft into a shop, are you considering a static shop? Or are you going to travel in convoy? Are you thinking of a walk on shop instead of hanging it all on the side of the boat for towpath walkers to peruse?  If the former then are you aware of the stringent/expensive rules concerning members of the public on board your boat?  There are a number of floating shops that came of a cropper not realising this.

Where is Ether?

Looking at your questions, it sounds as if you want to be radical and move away from custom and tradition when it comes to boat design. Basically I'm tempted to say, your boat, your money happy days.  However the more sensible side of my head says resale at some point could work against your investment. Are you hoping to fund the initial hull/engine & basics for £28K or was that just an aside comment?

[Jen-in-Wellies]

You'll also need a business licence from CaRT for your shop boat. Apologies if you are already aware of this. Worth talking to them at an early stage.

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/business-and-trade/boating-business

On the new build versus refit question. You have boating experience, so should have a good idea of what works and what doesn't. You'll also not be living on the boat while fitting/refitting it, which is a major time and effort saving as otherwise you spend half the time moving stuff out the way before you can work.  If it was me in this situation I would go for a new shell rather than do a major refit of an old one. Less work and you know the hull is good. Get the exterior properly painted when the shell is built and externally watertight if you possibly can. Saves a lot of remidial work derusting grey primer later.

Jen

Edited March 27, 2018 by Jen-in-Wellies

[BilgePump]

Hi and welcome to the forum. Although your question is 'buy new sailaway or secondhand fitted out' I guess any suggestions should really involve consideration of information we don't yet know. Will you start trading asap or wait until you can separate your living space and trading space onto the two boats? If one is to be a home and one for trading can it be assumed that they will stay together? What kind of trading boat is envisaged? Walk on or not, moored or continuously cruising? Possibly home mooring and then going out to trade on the cut for part of the time?

If you are thinking of a boat that people can walk onto, as in a 'traditional shop', then as zenataomm and Jen have pointed out you will find it much more heavily regulated and expensive territory compared to the roving trader licence where no access is allowed and the boat's exterior is effectively a floating market stall of samples and price lists. Converting one boat into a walk-on 'traditional shop' whilst fitting out another from new would be an awful lot of work, whereas a secondhand boat ready to go and some minor changes to the original boat for roving trading would be an order of magnitiude less work.

Some roving traders quite happily live and carry their stock in the same boat but I imagine two of you plus stock in 46ft would be a push so can understand your thinking about a second boat. However, I do wonder how many canal based itinerant businesses can sustain the costs of two boats. A budget of 28k would get a decent liveable 60ft boat from the nineties but you then have two licences, hulls, engines, gearboxes, blacking etc to worry about maintaining. Would it be possible to combine both in 60ft or 70ft? Only you know the type of stock that you will want to sell. Up to one ton of non-hazardous goods, not producing food or drink or waste should be relatively okay judging by CaRT's guidelines for applications. If you only trade in bubble wrap, a lot of space will be required. If you only sell silver pendants, the stock could fit in a small cupboard so do you really need the second boat to start off with?

As you say that the new boat needn't be habitable straight away, should we infer that it will be possible to start trading using the existing boat or that you won't start trading from the 46' boat before the larger one is fully habitable? A DIY fit-out takes a long time and a not insignificant cost; having workers in to do most of it and you will start to see why new boats can be so expensive. I suspect that some quotes for the bespoke work you mention will be more than £500 here and there and overall finances could be spread too thin.

If you buy a shell and start trading on the 46'er whilst still living on it but then decide it isn't working out then you will have a fairly stark choice. 1) pay for two boats whilst trying to scrimp together to finish the fitout, 2) sell the shell (at a loss) and stay on the 46'er, or 3) sell the 46'er and camp out in the 60' shell until you finish it.

If you can start trading on the 46' boat whilst living on it then I'd suggest trying that first to test the market and see if it will sustain the boat and pay for your time. If it does, great, the inconvenience of being cramped will have allowed you to put some extra money away for the bigger boat. If the business doesn't work out well then not too much is wasted on the boat front.

If you are set on two boats and won't/can't start trading until the second boat is habitable then I would suggest a secondhand boat that is ready to cruise. You could then make changes to it as finances and time allow or even consider upgrading to new. If business doesn't work out then at least the choice seems a lot less painful than being halfway through a fitout as both boats will be useable and saleable. 

[Alan de Enfield]

If going for a 'new' 60' boat then £28,000 will get you an 'empty shell' with an engine.

If you intend to use tradesmen to assist you with the fit out then you could spend anything up to the 'same again' in completing to a 'comfortable liveaboard' standard. If you can manage say £500 per month then it could take you many years before it is anywhere near finished.

If you intend to 100% DIY it will be cheaper to fit out, but will take you much longer.

Have you considered where you will do this work ? Do you have somewhere you can store big sheets of wood ? Do you have access to electricity and all of the necessary tools ?

The 1st thing you will need to do is to paint the shell to avoid it going rusty This can be done professionally (£5000 upwards) or DIY but it needs to be done properly and ideally within hours of the boat being yours - the 'undercoat' with which the boat will be supplied will be hydroscopic and will actually absorb moisture from the air - the longer you leave it the more preparation will be needed.

As the shell is empty inside, you can do nothing until it has been battened out and insulated. Spray foam insulation will cost around £1000 to have done, and looking at a previous thread on the subject it cost £40 less to DIY, &, it is a dirty, horrible, job.

I would strongly suggest going down the 'preloved' route and spending the odd £500 as it becomes available in updating and changing what needs doing. Building a boat from an empty shell, with no capital and an 'odd £500 every now & then' is the route to misery and disaster

[Richard10002]

Bilgepump and Alan cover most of it. Buying new and fitting out will take years for sourcing, specifying, waiting for build, and fitting out. 2nd hand and ready to go can be had within a few weeks or months.

Are you planning to make your living from the roving boat business, or do you have another source of income?

[Sea Dog]

Even the well established proper high Street shops are struggling at the moment.  How did your market research go and what did someone who understands these things think of your business plan? 

[Queen Mab]

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When you say turn the 46ft into a shop, are you considering a static shop? Or are you going to travel in convoy? Are you thinking of a walk on shop instead of hanging it all on the side of the boat for towpath walkers to peruse?  If the former then are you aware of the stringent/expensive rules concerning members of the public on board your boat? 

I'm considering a travelling shop. If the rules say no customers allowed on board, I would set up shop on the towpath/side of the boat.

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Where is Ether?

Ether is the region of the universe above the terrestrial sphere. Or you could say anywhere in England.

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Are you hoping to fund the initial hull/engine & basics for £28K or was that just an aside comment?

£28K is my initial budget for purchase.

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Will you start trading asap or wait until you can separate your living space and trading space onto the two boats? If one is to be a home and one for trading can it be assumed that they will stay together? What kind of trading boat is envisaged? Walk on or not, moored or continuously cruising? Possibly home mooring and then going out to trade on the cut for part of the time?

I plan to trade on land for the time being, until the boat is ready to be used. I'd like to transfer much of my land workshop onto the boat so that it is easy for me to travel and produce items, as otherwise I could be travelling hundreds of miles, for hours and hours, just to get to a workshop. Not ideal when I make all of the products!

I think the trade boat may be mostly attached to the home boat on a mooring for most of the year, with jaunts off occasionally to sell in the summer. This means there will still need to be a semblance of "liveaboard" to the trading boat, e.g. space for bed, cooker, toilet.

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Would it be possible to combine both in 60ft or 70ft?

70ft is a possibility as I plan to sell jewellery, clothing, second hand books and small pieces of art (stored flat in plastic), but it would mean my partner would have to join me on jaunts to sell things. Maybe he won't mind!

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As you say that the new boat needn't be habitable straight away, should we infer that it will be possible to start trading using the existing boat or that you won't start trading from the 46' boat before the larger one is fully habitable?

Won't start trading until new one fully habitable.

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Have you considered where you will do this work ? Do you have somewhere you can store big sheets of wood ? Do you have access to electricity and all of the necessary tools ?

Might get a mooring soon. Currently do not have one. No idea where going to be living in the future, hopefully somewhere cheap!

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Are you planning to make your living from the roving boat business, or do you have another source of income?

I would love to make a living from it, but I know that it is like finding hen's teeth. I'll probably do a mixture of selling on the internet, in land shops (stock) and on the boat. The main reason for having a boat to trade from is actually the workshop area, as it means I won't have to travel far to make things. My thought is that it would be nice to sell stuff from the boat too, and for £60 extra a year, the boat/workshop can become an extra income stream, potentially. I do have another part time "day job" too. I'm not leaving that until I match my income from it with trade.

[Queen Mab]

8 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Even the well established proper high Street shops are struggling at the moment.  How did your market research go and what did someone who understands these things think of your business plan? 

My research confirmed that hand-made items are more sought after than outsourcing production to a commercial factory, and that a physical space is important for storage of items which take a while to sell. I spoke to someone who works in the clothing industry and they thought the idea of a boat shop had merit.

On a practical level, a boat shop would have a similar function to a van, but would be easier to store as it would be on a mooring, and also doubles up as a place to sleep while off travelling to locations for markets, etc. I can't drive yet either, but can manoeuvre a boat well.

 

[David Mack]

If you are going to sell to the public directly from the boat, there must only be a few places where you can moor with sufficient footfall to make the business viable. So this will be very much a hobby business, unless you can do most of your trade online/mail order.

[Queen Mab]

35 minutes ago, David Mack said:

If you are going to sell to the public directly from the boat, there must only be a few places where you can moor with sufficient footfall to make the business viable. So this will be very much a hobby business, unless you can do most of your trade online/mail order.

I agree very much so. I create these items whether I earn money from them or not. They fall like fruits from the tree! Currently have no where to sell them (and no where constantly near to boat home to make them). Would be nice to have a base/flagship, but definitely would sell at other locations too.