Should I buy one of these boats?

[PeterCr]

Hi All

I've seen quite a few comments here that aren't exactly complimentary about boats from Liverpool or Collingwood.

As a prospective boat buyer I'm wondering exactly what faults I should be looking for, or should I just avoid Liverpool or Collingwood boats altogether?

Thanks

[zenataomm]

I reckon if a Liverpool or Collingwood boat is built well enough to have gotten itself to Australia then it's good enough for anything.

[Alan de Enfield]

Liverpool boats were built on a production line with various 'tradesmen' working on them as they progressed 'down the line'.

Many are fine, but there are a number of examples of boats that had one gunwhale inches wider than the other one, and some examples of hulls being 'banana shaped' - no where were they wider than claimed, but it you put the hull against a straight edge there would be a gap at some point, and a 'bow-out' opposite. If the outside of the 'bow' was measured across to the straight edge then it was oversize. This is not critical for many locks, but as the canal system ages some of the locks are shrinking (narrowing) and there are some locks on the system where these 'banana' boats can either not get in, or as the water level changes they can get stuck - the bottom of the Llangollen canal is one such lock.

This is by no means a large percentage of boat but it is also not that uncommon.

Many folks have Liverpool boats and never have a problem and are quite happy with them.

 

The build quality of Collingwood boats was not high but one would hope that on a boat a few years old that the problems will have been rectified by subsequent owners.

Many 'recent newcomers' to the building of steel NBs and widebeams have problems - last year a brand new Blue-Water widebeam came into our marina, for several days there were three 'rectification' folks working on it, they left and a couple of them came back a couple of weeks later, they left and a couple of weeks later another guy turned up. I asked them if this was typical of the problems with that companies new-builds to be told "NO - its normally much worse than this, this one was 'hand built and checked over' for the Crick boat show". They never did sort out the water ingress problem and just told the owner that's what happens with cruiser stern boats.

[PeterCr]

Wow I thought it was the middle of the night over there, do you guys never sleep? I was expecting replies tomorrow.

8 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

I reckon if a Liverpool or Collingwood boat is built well enough to have gotten itself to Australia then it's good enough for anything.

The owner told me that it was pretty rough crossing the Indian Ocean, they even had to close the side doors at one stage!

Yes I'm in Oz and I can tell you it's a nightmare trying to buy a boat from over here in the current market. As soon as I look at something it's sold.

And I had to laugh when I read that someone on here, I forget who, was finding a 4 hour drive was a bit much to see a boat. I'm tossing up with buying an air ticket over there and paying for (possibly months) of accommodation and car hire so I can look at boats.

And thanks Alan, it would be second hand of course so your comment about faults being ironed out is a good one, though hard to iron out a banana! But I suppose it's something for a surveyor to look for.

I do find it worrying though about these clauses in the contracts that specify that you can't walk away unless rectification is over 10%. If the surveyor just says it's an ordinary boat and he wouldn't buy it then I'd want to walk away, but short of the 10% I can't without losing my deposit. So if it's a Liverpool or Collingwood and I get that comment from him then I'm a little stuck. And I've heard recently of a number of people who have lost deposits with a certain broker for exactly this reason.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, PeterCr said:

Wow I thought it was the middle of the night over there, do you guys never sleep? I was expecting replies tomorrow.

The owner told me that it was pretty rough crossing the Indian Ocean, they even had to close the side doors at one stage!

Yes I'm in Oz and I can tell you it's a nightmare trying to buy a boat from over here in the current market. As soon as I look at something it's sold.

And I had to laugh when I read that someone on here, I forget who, was finding a 4 hour drive was a bit much to see a boat. I'm tossing up with buying an air ticket over there and paying for (possibly months) of accommodation and car hire so I can look at boats.

And thanks Alan, it would be second hand of course so your comment about faults being ironed out is a good one, though hard to iron out a banana! But I suppose it's something for a surveyor to look for. He would need to be advise to specifically look for it

I do find it worrying though about these clauses in the contracts that specify that you can't walk away unless rectification is over 10%. If the surveyor just says it's an ordinary boat and he wouldn't buy it then I'd want to walk away, but short of the 10% I can't without losing my deposit. So if it's a Liverpool or Collingwood and I get that comment from him then I'm a little stuck. And I've heard recently of a number of people who have lost deposits with a certain broker for exactly this reason. The percentage can often be negotiated and I would suggest that 5% is probably more common than 10%

The BMF contract - the 5% figure can be amended as agreed between the two parties :

1.      Defects

1.1. If the inspection, survey or sea trial reveals any major defects in the Vessel, its machinery, gear or equipment which affects the operational integrity of the Vessel or her systems or renders her unseaworthy, and such defect was not disclosed to the Purchaser in writing prior to the signing of this Agreement, or if there are any deficiencies in the inventory prepared and attached to this Agreement, for which the aggregate cost of rectification by a competent and reputable shipyard or replacements (on a like for like basis, discounted to second hand prices) is collectively equal to or exceeds 5% of the Purchase Price then the Purchaser may give written notice to the Seller or the Broker within 7 days of completion of the inspection, survey and sea trial, whichever is the later, specifying the defects and/or deficiencies and including a copy of all relevant extracts from a surveyor’s or adviser’s report, and either:

1.1.1. reject the Vessel, or

1.1.2. require the Seller to make good the defects and/or deficiencies or make a sufficient reduction in the Purchase Price to enable the Purchaser to do so.  In this case all agreed items of work shall be completed without undue delay and shall be carried out to the express requirements contained in the Notice served by the Purchaser.

For the purposes of this Clause 5.1 and Clause 5.1.2 "completion of survey" shall mean the date of receipt by the Purchaser of a written or emailed survey report.

[Alan de Enfield]

Slightly different wording from the RYA contract  (no mention of MAJOR defect)

RYA approved contract states -

5.Defects
5.1.If the inspection, survey or sea trial reveals any defect in the Vessel, its machinery, gear or equipment which was not disclosed to the Purchaser in writing prior to the signing of this Agreement, or if there are any deficiencies in the inventory prepared and attached to this Agreement, for which the aggregate cost of rectification by a competent and reputable shipyard or replacements (on a like for like basis, discounted to second hand prices) is collectively equal to or exceeds [5]% of the purchase price then the Purchaser may give written notice to the Seller or the Broker within 7 days of completion of the inspection, survey and sea trial, whichever is the later, specifying the defects and/or deficiencies and including a copy of all relevant extracts from a surveyor’s or adviser’s report, and either:
5.1.1.reject the Vessel, or
5.1.2.require the Seller to make good the defects and/or deficiencies or make a sufficient reduction in the purchase price to enable the Purchaser to do so. In this case all agreed items of work shall be completed without undue delay and shall be carried out to the express requirements contained in the Notice served by the Purchaser.
For the purposes of this Clause 5.1 and Clause 6.1.2 "completion of survey" shall mean the date of receipt by the Purchaser of a written or emailed survey report.

[Athy]

If the hull is too wide you can just stick some granules on to a piece of yellow sticky paper and sand it down.

 

But seriously, we had a boat with a Liverpool shell (built 2001). It performed just fine and felt solid. We liked it a lot. When we sold it we found that the side deck on one side was one inch wider than on the other side but this never affected us, indeed we had not noticed.

Edited March 26, 2018 by Athy

[zenataomm]

It is night now, but no, we don't sleep then, we sleep in the afternoon when we're drunk.

We're awake at night now we have 24 hour supermarkets.

[roland elsdon]

Arnt collingwood boats made in melbourne then ? Jesus another bit if australian manufacturing gone... 

[roland elsdon]

Seriously do not buy a boat over the net even from a good broker lets face it a cheap ticket is $1400. Negotiation will get you that money off a boat. The market isnt that hot, all boats have faults and prices negotiable.

[sharpness]

22 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Many folks have Liverpool boats and never have a problem and are quite happy with them.

Me for one, had ours 15 years ago as a sailaway, never a problem, very happy.

[Matt&Jo]

Its a bit of a gamble when it comes to deposits and survey fees, the boat may be a lemon and you have wasted your £850 fee, im going tgrough the same process and it changes from brokerage to brokerage. Best of luck finding the beast you want....oh and i said about driving 4 hours  then again have u sat on the M6 or M27 during rush hour.......

[PeterCr]

16 hours ago, roland elsdon said:

Arnt collingwood boats made in melbourne then ? Jesus another bit if australian manufacturing gone... 

We've got a football team called Collingwood but I haven't yet come across a boatbuilder of that name here yet. But who knows, they build them in Poland and Czechoslovakia. Why not? But then again as you say we don't build much here any more, though we dig up lots of stuff!

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Its a bit of a gamble when it comes to deposits and survey fees, the boat may be a lemon and you have wasted your £850 fee, im going tgrough the same process and it changes from brokerage to brokerage. Best of luck finding the beast you want....oh and i said about driving 4 hours  then again have u sat on the M6 or M27 during rush hour.......

Good luck to you too. I'm sure it's not easy even over there. And as you say it changes from one brokerage to another. There's some I won't even look at just from all the negative comments here.

I've been following your thread about the Aqualine. We've seen that boat for sale for a while and so interesting to see some informed comments. We're looking for a reverse layout though so wouldn't consider that one.

I was encouraged by ABNB though who offer the contract after the survey, not before, and after any issues are ironed out. The reason I asked about Liverpool or Collingwood boats is that 10% clause, though I have spoken to one broker at least who is willing to at least make it 5%. If there is a major fault that triggers that 10/5% then I can walk away. But if it's a boat that is just poorly built, but without specific faults that can be identified to trigger that 10/5% clause, then I can't walk away without losing my deposit. If for example the surveyor says there's no major faults but it's just not a great boat and he wouldn't buy it then I'm a bit stuck without a major expensive fault/s to rectify. So after quite a few less than complimentary comments here on those 2 boats I thought it might be worth asking what the problems were (if any) and what I should look for even before a survey.

And yes I have at least sat on the M25, I'm sure it's the same as the M6 or M27. Same here on the Monash Freeway going into Melbourne. 

Quote

Seriously do not buy a boat over the net even from a good broker lets face it a cheap ticket is $1400. 

Actually I'm finding some fares now below $1000 if out of school holidays. However the fare is probably cheaper than the costs of staying over there and looking at boats. We see a boat that we would seriously consider come up very occasionally, and I've read here of people taking many months/years to find a boat. I may need to pay for commercial accommodation and car hire for an extended period of time and that could become very expensive, not to mention finding something to do with my time when I'm not looking at boats. I have considered buying from here on the strength of a survey but in that case there's only 2 brokers I would consider. 

And for a private sale I'd have to come over and keep my fingers crossed the boat was still there unsold. Just last week I saw a boat we'd consider on private sale, sold this week. Rats.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, PeterCr said:

Actually I'm finding some fares now below $1000 if out of school holidays. However the fare is probably cheaper than the costs of staying over there and looking at boats. We see a boat that we would seriously consider come up very occasionally, and I've read here of people taking many months/years to find a boat. I may need to pay for commercial accommodation and car hire for an extended period of time and that could become very expensive, not to mention finding something to do with my time when I'm not looking at boats. I have considered buying from here on the strength of a survey but in that case there's only 2 brokers I would consider. 

And for a private sale I'd have to come over and keep my fingers crossed the boat was still there unsold. Just last week I saw a boat we'd consider on private sale, sold this week. Rats.

You could always engage a 'boat finder / viewer / buyer' to act for you or maybe even to produce a 'short list' for you to come over and view.

Maybe someone with the skills and knowledge to negotiate with the brokers - maybe even get the 10% / 5% clause deleted ?

There are a few guys on the forum with the skills and the odd one or two even offer that service.

As you rightly point out it has been a sellers market for the last 2 or 3 years and good, properly priced boats are selling within days of coming onto the market - those that 'stick' are either way over priced or ready for the 'big canal in the sky'.

My feeling is that the market is going to continue to be 'hot' as more folks can now take early pension pots, are downsizing and even those who have more disposable incomes - then there is the growing market sector of the 'floating flat owners' - those who don't really want a boat but cannot afford bricks and mortar in their chosen city.

Ideally you need to be here, on the ground and able to respond immediately - three years ago a boat came up on ApolloDuck at around mid day - it was a 4 hour drive away and I was there by 5pm with a carrier bag full of cash. An hour later I had bought it, loaded up my personal stuff and set off back towards home whilst the wife drove the car home., A friend brought her out to meet me a couple of days later and we then got stuck in floods, unable to move, for almost 3 weeks with just 'overnight' clothes and minimum rations. We survived.

I sold it a year later, making £1000 profit, and it went off down to London to be a liveaboard - they had secured a mooring at Brentford and were over the moon to finally be on the 'housing ladder'.

Edited March 26, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

'Scuse me for asking the obvious. What's the point of buying a boat in the UK if you're in Aus?

I'f you're planning to come over here, why not buy a boat once you're here?

[PeterCr]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You could always engage a 'boat finder / viewer / buyer' to act for you or maybe even to produce a 'short list' for you to come over and view.

Maybe someone with the skills and knowledge to negotiate with the brokers - maybe even get the 10% / 5% clause deleted ?

There are a few guys on the forum with the skills and the odd one or two even offer that service.

A while ago I did look for someone like that, in the past Matty did that and I contacted him but he said he was a little busy and probably couldn't help so much in the current market anyway. He did produce a shortlist in the past but said it was hard to do so now when they were selling fast.

I have more recently spoken to a surveyor and he's been great, even dropping in to view a boat for me when he was going past. I'm not so sure that he'd take on a lot more than that though, he surveys. But he has been great to date, though I've only asked about one boat.

I have thought, and I think suggested here a while back, that there could be a business for someone over there who knows their stuff helping foreign buyers like us. I know quite a few people, including from here, have bought unseen, and a buyers agent would be extremely useful. I even suggested that a while back as a business idea to a liveaboard guy who wrote a boating newsletter but he wasn't interested. 

Quote

'Scuse me for asking the obvious. What's the point of buying a boat in the UK if you're in Aus?

I'f you're planning to come over here, why not buy a boat once you're here?

Whilst we live in Oz my wife is from Nottingham and still has family there. Our first trip was about 25 years ago in a 20 foot grp we borrowed from the inlaws. 5 weeks over the Llangollen and we were hooked. Couldn't do that now in a boat not much bigger than a bathtub though! Since then we've hired quite a few times and always loved it, usually a month or 5 weeks at a time.

It pays to hire for 5 weeks, it costs roughly what marina costs and licence etc add up to for a year and there's no maintenance to pay.

But this year we could do 2 trips, each about a month or more, but she retires next year (I'm retired already) and we'd like to do 6 months next year and following years. Hiring is fine for a month but for longer use it gets expensive and as we can afford it we'd like our own boat rather than a hire boat each time, though I know we could do long term hire. And whilst the value of the boat might drop you do have an asset you can sell when the time comes whilst hiring is money gone. Maintenance - well that's another issue but we'll just get on with that.

And we're continually surprised at how many Aussies we meet on the cut when we're there. Plenty of us own a boat there and do back to back summers. Just not us yet but we're working on it! Sadly we moored up 2 years ago behind an Australian couple who were selling their boat, exactly what we wanted, but just a couple of years too early.

 

[roland elsdon]

When we bought our current boat it came up on the adverts 8 weeks before we bought it. We sat in Australia on tenterhooks  for 8 weeks.  We had missed 3 boats I knew would have been good.  Arrived bought it on the day after we arrived, surveyed it etc. We knocked the price down £ 3000 on the day we bought it and had 3000 worth of work done at the sellers expense. Ok it's my fourth old working boat and I have a rough idea of what to look for, but being on the ground saved me a lot. Boats look very different in photos. We will see her in 15 days bye bye gippsland

[PeterCr]

I get the feeling the brokers don't have to try hard for sales at the moment. We saw a boat that we'd consider and so I emailed the broker asking for some extra photos of things that we couldn't see in the few photos they have put up, and for a few more details.

4 days and haven't even had a reply.

[Dr Bob]

9 hours ago, PeterCr said:

 But if it's a boat that is just poorly built, but without specific faults that can be identified to trigger that 10/5% clause, then I can't walk away without losing my deposit. If for example the surveyor says there's no major faults but it's just not a great boat and he wouldn't buy it then I'm a bit stuck without a major expensive fault/s to rectify.

 

If you are over here looking at boats then this shouldnt happen. If its poorly built then you will see that on YOUR inspection. The surveyor then is just looking for big problems - to cancel the sale - or little problems so you can knock some money off.

My opinion is that you need to see a boat to know you like it. We looked this time last year for a 57' (must be under 58'  to do all the small locks), reverse layout and cassette toilet. We saw one which went the folllowing day. We then saw 20 odd boats - none of which rang our bell. The next one we fell in love with at first sight - which we bought. 63' !!!!! no short locks then,  pump out plasma toilet - wonderful,  and standard layout - much better as you have the 'conservatory' (cratch) at the front. Our best laid plans of what we wanted went straight out the window.

Get yourself over here for a couple of weeks and do all the brokers.

[WJM]

I have had a Liverpool Boat or 11 years - no problems, no regrets. The hinges on the various hatches need regular oiling or they can seize. The only actual repair I have ever done to my boat is to replace the weed hatch hinges. Other than that, I have mine lifted every three years and fully surveyed after it has been stripped for blacking. Every time it has come back with no problems. The topside painting was perhaps a little 'thin' and after 11 years it began to look tatty. It looked like it was sprayed on quite thinly. But 11 years is not bad going in the British climate. I just had it completely repainted with proper thick paint. Not a bad list of maintenance items for over a decade of hard boating!

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by WJM

[zenataomm]

You don't want to buy a boat called Rats, there's bound to be a back story to that!

[Athy]

4 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

You don't want to buy a boat called Rats, there's bound to be a back story to that!

Yes, backwards it's a far more appealing name.

[PeterCr]

15 hours ago, zenataomm said:

You don't want to buy a boat called Rats, there's bound to be a back story to that!

At least if we had to change the name to Rats the signwriting would be cheap. Only 4 letters!

[Boat&Bikes]

As you are doing two, one month boating holidays this year, I would have thought the easy thing to do is to hire a boat for a month in the midlands. You can cruise and visit many of the better brokers in that time. Good chance of finding your boat in that time. Agree a price, go home whilst the deal is done and then come back for your second month holiday on your own boat!

[Machpoint005]

On 3/26/2018 at 23:10, PeterCr said:

But who knows, they build them in Poland and Czechoslovakia.

Are you looking for a 29-year-old boat (or older)?