Cost of a 1979 33ft Springer

[WotEver]

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

Surely March has two EYES....

Now look...

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

Surely March has two EYES....

Nope - no eyes in March but there is one in April, (there is also no eye in chocolate, but there is in MINE)

[X Alan W]

On 3/24/2018 at 16:07, SadieF said:

apologies. bad wording. what i mean is he rents it, and his name is on the papers. but doesn't have rights to it if the boat isn't there. It's all quite informal down here anyway and is by agreement with the farmer and the rest of community. 

 

If you decide to go ahead I would suggest you over rule this informal system & find out who owns what & get it on paper in a written agreement/lease these good will agreements have a habit of not being all they are made out to be & it's possible you will rend up the creek with no means of propulsion Find out all the in's & out's before you part with cash From your posts the boat seems around the £2000 mark To get it up together you are going to have to throw money at it

[rusty69]

22 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

Surely March has two I's

Not the way I spell it

[MtB]

10 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Not the way I spell it

 

Yes but you're hopeless at spilling. As any fule kno.

[rusty69]

9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yes but you're hopeless at spilling. As any fule kno.

No I am not. I just spilled me tea down me trousers.

[Jim Batty]

On 24/03/2018 at 14:23, SadieF said:

Hiya

I'm wondering if anyone could give me a guide price for a Springer. 1979, trad stern, 33ft narrowboat. 

I'm currently renting it but thinking to make an offer. It's just had the shower pump refitted and lots of rotten wood removed, however there is rotten wood under the floorboards that needs doing and it needs drying out - guy who owns it can't afford to do the rest of work i think/and it's falling on me to do this maintenance work.  I've just spent the last couple of Saturdays and evenings, absorbing water out of the floor and de moulding!!

It's not been blacked in ages - since he got it - so at least 7 years, and I don't imagine it's the longer lasting paint!

The engine doesn't work - and takes up loads of space. ...

 

33-foot 1979 Springer and not blacked in seven years? It sounds like you may have pitting and corrosion on the outside of the hull ... plus corrosion on the inside of the hull. My first question would be: When was it last over-plated and where? If there is no clear answer to this (or it has never been overplated) I would assume it will need to be and want somewhere in the region of £5K-£7K taken off the price to cover the cost. But this poses a problem, as forum consensus seems to value the boat at less than £5K. 

If you could retain the nice mooring by buying the boat, I'd ask myself what I would be willing to pay for that privilege. £2K? £3K? More? I'd then buy the boat for that price with the intention of almost immediately selling it on as a project boat for as near that price as I could get ... and look for something less likely to sink to replace it. 

If you really love the boat I suspect there will be a lot of work and cost involved in keeping it.

Edited March 26, 2018 by Jim Batty

[SadieF]

Hello. Thanks to everyone who have given advice on here. 

I did offer 3k with the intention of going higher, but it seems it really has alot of sentimental value for him and he wants to hang on to it to give to his daughter one day! It seems everyone you speak to has a different opinion about how much it's worth, apparently it was bought for 14k 7 years ago, and apparently worth more than that now!!! (i'm not sure about this.....) I was thinking about offering a good chunk of cash 7.5k so it was a more tempting offer but this boat just doesn't feel right to take on as the engine is really buggered (very much so according to guy i spoke to today who is helping to fix floor for the owner), plus the neglect of the hull, and the mooring fees are not fixed and will be going up in the future (perhaps double is the thoughts on this). I think I may have dodged a bullet here. Having a working engine has got to be a high priority. 

He's getting it out of the water and having it blacked and getting a survey done in the summer - so that might clear things up a bit more on how much it's worth, and whether he wants to keep ploughing money into it. However, I think I've changed my mind now and I don't want it. 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, SadieF said:

I think I've changed my mind now and I don't want it. 

From the sound of it - a good decision.

2 things make or break a boat ;

1) Hull

2) Engine

Most everything else can be either 'lived with' or fairly easily, and relatively cheaply, changed.

[Tumshie]

24 minutes ago, SadieF said:

However, I think I've changed my mind now and I don't want it. 

Hi Sadie   

I'm sorry things didn't work out as you hoped - but like you say you may have dodged a bullet, especially if the mooring fees might be increased significantly.

 

[SadieF]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

From the sound of it - a good decision.

2 things make or break a boat ;

1) Hull

2) Engine

Most everything else can be either 'lived with' or fairly easily, and relatively cheaply, changed.

yes - these things are a must. I will keep on looking. My budget is pretty low though 13k max right now. I'm not entirely sure it's possible to get a decent boat for this cash. What's your thoughts on this. 

 

2 hours ago, Tumshie said:

Hi Sadie   

I'm sorry things didn't work out as you hoped - but like you say you may have dodged a bullet, especially if the mooring fees might be increased significantly.

 

Yes. I think it's going to work out pretty expensive for the owner once that happens. Maybe a van would be a better option for now. with my lowish budget, low for a boat, for pretty good for a van budget. hmmmm. 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

7 hours ago, SadieF said:

yes - these things are a must. I will keep on looking. My budget is pretty low though 13k max right now. I'm not entirely sure it's possible to get a decent boat for this cash. What's your thoughts on this. 

 

It will not be easy but if you are not in a rush then one will pop-up.

I sold a 30 foot NB 3 years ago for £12k - it was dated but 'sound' I had fitted a solid fuel fire and it had a new 'pram-hood' (conservatory to give it an extra room).

It went to a couple as a liveaboard, moving down to London and they just 'jumped on' and drove off - speaking to them a couple of weeks after they arrived all they needed was a new starter battery.

Don't give up.

This is it :

 

 

[Mad Harold]

10 hours ago, SadieF said:

Hello. Thanks to everyone who have given advice on here. 

I did offer 3k with the intention of going higher, but it seems it really has alot of sentimental value for him and he wants to hang on to it to give to his daughter one day! It seems everyone you speak to has a different opinion about how much it's worth, apparently it was bought for 14k 7 years ago, and apparently worth more than that now!!! (i'm not sure about this.....) I was thinking about offering a good chunk of cash 7.5k so it was a more tempting offer but this boat just doesn't feel right to take on as the engine is really buggered (very much so according to guy i spoke to today who is helping to fix floor for the owner), plus the neglect of the hull, and the mooring fees are not fixed and will be going up in the future (perhaps double is the thoughts on this). I think I may have dodged a bullet here. Having a working engine has got to be a high priority. 

He's getting it out of the water and having it blacked and getting a survey done in the summer - so that might clear things up a bit more on how much it's worth, and whether he wants to keep ploughing money into it. However, I think I've changed my mind now and I don't want it. 

 

I think you have made the right decision.I bought a boat with a farm mooring and when I took it over, the landowner promptly doubled the rent,saying he hadn't increased it for over ten years.

When buying a boat,I decided to avoid Springers because they are usually built with fairly thin metal to start with,and an old one will more than likely need replating at about [to quote Kedian] £180 per foot.They are mostly V bottomed and because of this the cost of dry docking is extra.

Knowing what I know now,I paid too much for my boat,["fruit sweet to taste,can prove in digestion,sour"] to quote the Bard.

There are decent boats available for your budget,but you need to be patient,and look at as many as possible,because you can almost guarantee that as soon as you have bought one,a better,cheaper one will come up.

[SadieF]

On 16/04/2018 at 08:13, Alan de Enfield said:

It will not be easy but if you are not in a rush then one will pop-up.

I sold a 30 foot NB 3 years ago for £12k - it was dated but 'sound' I had fitted a solid fuel fire and it had a new 'pram-hood' (conservatory to give it an extra room).

It went to a couple as a liveaboard, moving down to London and they just 'jumped on' and drove off - speaking to them a couple of weeks after they arrived all they needed was a new starter battery.

Don't give up.

This is it :

 

 

Hi Alan de Enfield 

 

Thanks for that message. 

 

I think i've found a similar boat. it's a 30ft narrowboat, unknown manufacturer, 1977, cruiser stern. needs blacking - done 3 years ago. has a solar panel, and inverter. calorifier, space to install a shower - (started but not finished). good burner. full size gas hob and oven, sink. no fridge. it's small but it's really well laid out with a double bed partly going underneath the bow and a sitting room as you walk in that can convert to a small double for guests. 

 

The engine is a bmc 1.5 water coolled and is said to be sound, but doesn't go fast - smoke comes out on high revs i was told!

 

I had a brief look at the last survey done 3 years ago and there appears to be a bit of 'hungry horse' effect where plates bend in on the sides but it says 'not affecting the integrity of the structure at this stage'! The base plate has been overplated from 22ft to the bow extending full width, also 6-14ft, and a small bow plate welded under stern peice. So it's had a fair bit of overplating!

. 

It's a nice little boat inside. I wondered if based on this info people here could help me decide how much they think this boat is worth. and any further questions i should be asking/checks to do. I'll of course be getting a survey, before actually buying. What would be the advice re. the overplating? My budget is pretty low so I'm not sure if a hull that;s sound with no plating is possible on this budget. 

 

Hope to get some advice . 

 

Thanks. Sadie 

[LadyG]

sounds like a bad deal, potential money sink . I don't think you can get a valuation without a survey tbh

Edited June 13, 2018 by LadyG

[alan_fincher]

7 hours ago, SadieF said:

The engine is a bmc 1.5 water coolled and is said to be sound, but doesn't go fast - smoke comes out on high revs i was told!

 

If a BMC 1.5 can't push a small 30 foot boat along at a good pace without producing a lot of smoke, I would hardly call it "sound"!

 

Many elderly BMCs smoke a bit on start up, or when thrashed, but a "sound" one, once warmed up, should speed a 30 foot boat with only minimal smoke, (or better still none).

What colour is the smoke?

Edited June 13, 2018 by alan_fincher
Missing letter

[Alan de Enfield]

6 hours ago, SadieF said:

I had a brief look at the last survey done 3 years ago and there appears to be a bit of 'hungry horse' effect where plates bend in on the sides but it says 'not affecting the integrity of the structure at this stage'! The base plate has been overplated from 22ft to the bow extending full width, also 6-14ft, and a small bow plate welded under stern peice. So it's had a fair bit of overplating!

Not quite following the terminology.

Has it been plater starting 22 foot from the stern to the bow, or the bow and 22 feet backwards ?

What is "6-14 feet" ?

Were the sides plated up to the water line or just the base plate ?

 

Sounds like it may have been plated in stages as the 'problems' were found - it would have been easier and (probably) cheaper to have done the job in one-go.

What state are the non-overplated parts in ?

 

I'd always hesitate to buy an overplated boat without knowing how it was done and what the condition is underneath the plating - its different to buy a boat needing overplating and having it done under your control so you know what's being done.

 

Unless the boat is very, very cheap, and you can afford to spend £1000s on it (or even lose it) then I'd keep my cheque book firmly in my pocket and walk away.

[70liveaboard]

On 16/04/2018 at 00:27, SadieF said:

yes - these things are a must. I will keep on looking. My budget is pretty low though 13k max right now. I'm not entirely sure it's possible to get a decent boat for this cash. What's your thoughts on this. 

 

 

This is a little over your top end, but worth asking for more pics. http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat.phtml?id=570329

[Horace42]

From a different direction, how long can a rusty boat be kept running at minimal expense

supposing you bought it, or even if the seller kept it, what would be the likely outcome if the over-plating was ignored.

I guess the boat would eventually start leaking due to rusty pin-holes.

Either to have a constantly running float-drain bilge pump  - or become flooded if unattended or neglected.

Are sunken boats exempt from 14 days mooring limit?

That sounds like disaster to me.

But since this is a likely outcome and suggesting a common scenario considering the numbers of old rusty boats around - where are all these sunken boats??

Apart from a couple - I can't say I have seen many in my travels - so where do boats go when they die?

Where is the graveyard, the  'great-canal-in-the-sky'.

Similarly I can't say I have seen boats being cut up in boatyards.'

But if not sinking, or beached?, or cut-up, how are old boats disposed of?
 

[Alan de Enfield]

32 minutes ago, Horace42 said:

so where do boats go when they die?

 

There are lots of places - here is one that specialises in 'fire damaged' boats :

 

http://www.boatwrecks.com/power.asp

 

As I see it the problem with 'thin-bottomed' boats is not so much that in 1 - 5 - 10 years they will rust thru, but more as the bottom of the canal gets nearer the top, builders rubble is left in the canal, shopping trolleys are dumped etc there are more & more 'hard' obstacles that could easily puncture a thin-hull.

It doesn't take much to 'rip' a car body panel (generally 0.8mm thick)  and a boat, weighing 10 times that of a car will  have so much momentum it will just continue to ride over the 'object' creating damage all along the base plate.

So buying / using a thin-bottomed boat, is for me, a false economy.

 

If the boat is going to sit on a mooring as a 'floating flat' and never actually move then (probably) no problem with a 1mm thickness (if you are happy to have only 3rd party insurance) and you will get many happy years use out of it.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[manxmike]

Personally I would approach something like this with a great deal of caution, partially overplated and a springer made from poorer quality thin steel? Recipe for disaster or at the least a great deal of expense down the line.

Keep looking and keep the barge pole handy!

[Alan de Enfield]

23 minutes ago, manxmike said:

Keep looking and keep the barge pole handy!

I wouldn't touch it with yours, let alone mine !!

[Boater Sam]

In answer to the question you started out with, about £100 a ton delivered to a scrap yard once you have ripped out everything that is not metal.

[MtB]

13 hours ago, SadieF said:

The engine is a bmc 1.5 water coolled and is said to be sound, but doesn't go fast - smoke comes out on high revs i was told!

 

 

Other posters are focussing on the hull condition and all the overplating but I'm more concerned about the engine. Even a very rusty hull will continue floating for many years and a lot of overplating is done only to satisfy the ludicrous requirement of comprehensive insurers for 4mm minimum hull thickness, and a lot of overplating is a monumental bodge-up of no technical value other than to satisfy this arbitrary 4mm insurance requirement.

 

A hull less than 4mm in places may well have decades of life still in it but this is not guaranteed, you would be throwing the dice and hoping to win, but the chances are you would get many happy years out of this boat even with no further overplating, provided you are ok with third party only insurance.

 

The engine however worries me. A BMC 1.5 is way oversized for that boat and you should be able to tow water skiers, so given the bit I hightlighted I think we can safely say it is in a seriously bad way and needs several £k of work on it immediately. This is probably why it is for sale.

 

In answer to your question about value, given the need to spend oodles of dosh on the engine immediately along with the doubtful condition of the hull combined with it's great age, I would value this boat at about £3k. Possibly £5k given you say the interior is particularly nice and suits your needs. Once you have spent say £4k getting the engine rebuilt, the boat will still not be worth much more due to age and the indeterminate state of the hull with all that dodgy overplating. Surveying an overplated hull often doesn't tell you much you don't know already. 

 

Just my opinion though. 

 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman

[LadyG]

15 hours ago, SadieF said:

Hi Alan de Enfield 

 

Thanks for that message. 

 

I think i've found a similar boat. it's a 30ft narrowboat, unknown manufacturer, 1977, cruiser stern. needs blacking - done 3 years ago. has a solar panel, and inverter. calorifier, space to install a shower - (started but not finished). good burner. full size gas hob and oven, sink. no fridge. it's small but it's really well laid out with a double bed partly going underneath the bow and a sitting room as you walk in that can convert to a small double for guests. 

 

The engine is a bmc 1.5 water coolled and is said to be sound, but doesn't go fast - smoke comes out on high revs i was told!

 

I had a brief look at the last survey done 3 years ago and there appears to be a bit of 'hungry horse' effect where plates bend in on the sides but it says 'not affecting the integrity of the structure at this stage'! The base plate has been overplated from 22ft to the bow extending full width, also 6-14ft, and a small bow plate welded under stern peice. So it's had a fair bit of overplating!

. 

It's a nice little boat inside. I wondered if based on this info people here could help me decide how much they think this boat is worth. and any further questions i should be asking/checks to do. I'll of course be getting a survey, before actually buying. What would be the advice re. the overplating? My budget is pretty low so I'm not sure if a hull that;s sound with no plating is possible on this budget. 

 

Hope to get some advice . 

 

Thanks. Sadie 

The earlier advice holds good: a good engine and a sound hull , so there is no point thinking about this one, is there?

If you are short of cash, maybe best to get an extra job and cut your outgoings.

You WILL have extra costs, so you MUST have a contingency fund.

Whilton Marina have a few boats in your budget.

Your budget is not going to buy you a fifty footer.

You need to buy something which has a reliable means of heating for winter and an engine which is reliable if you are going to cc.

You are best off  if there is a fixed bed, but it is not going to be luxury living.

You are not often going to pay the asking price of any particular boat. Many people are chancers, you don't know much about boats, why should you assume they know any more?

Edited June 13, 2018 by LadyG