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Licence auto-renewal


magpie patrick

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3 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

No it doesn't.  The introduction implies that it does, but the actual analysis says:

"3. The prompt payment discount will be reduced to 5% in April 2019. From April 2020 the structure of the discount will be changed so that a 2.5% discount will be offered for prompt payment in full, and a 2.5% discount for those using automated payment methods (including monthly direct debits). "

I would imagine that just paying online with a card doesn't qualified as "automated", though what else could apart from DD I have no idea.

The key is 'including' direct debits.  The decision document, here, has a table showing what gives the full discount, and it says 

"Pay in full or by Direct Debit, credit or debit card using customer self-serve (online web licensing)"

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1 hour ago, adam1uk said:

The key is 'including' direct debits.  The decision document, here, has a table showing what gives the full discount, and it says 

"Pay in full or by Direct Debit, credit or debit card using customer self-serve (online web licensing)"

But I think it has to be agreed that what Arthur has quoted is very poorly worded.  I fail to see how me logging on to a CRT Licensing web site and manually making an electronic payment can be considered to be an automatic payment method - it simply isn't and they are wrong to use those words.

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25 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

But I think it has to be agreed that what Arthur has quoted is very poorly worded.  I fail to see how me logging on to a CRT Licensing web site and manually making an electronic payment can be considered to be an automatic payment method - it simply isn't and they are wrong to use those words.

You're right that the wording is poor.  Self service, which is also used, is much better.  I suppose they'd say it's automatic in as much as their staff don't have to do anything.

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I have just had an email from C&RT reminding me my licence is due at the end of May.

Interesting to note the following :

*If you pay by direct debit please note that your licence will no longer automatically renew and you need to follow one of the three options above to renew your licence.
*The early payment rate only applies if the correctly completed application (and any enclosures) is received by us on or before the licence start date. It does not apply if you pay by Direct Debit instalments.
** For applications received more than one month after the start date, an additional late payment charge of £150 is payable.

 

Other methods automatically renew.

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4 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I would imagine that just paying online with a card doesn't qualified as "automated", though what else could apart from DD I have no idea.

Standing Order?

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I have just had an email from C&RT reminding me my licence is due at the end of May.

Interesting to note the following :

*If you pay by direct debit please note that your licence will no longer automatically renew and you need to follow one of the three options above to renew your licence.
*The early payment rate only applies if the correctly completed application (and any enclosures) is received by us on or before the licence start date. It does not apply if you pay by Direct Debit instalments.
** For applications received more than one month after the start date, an additional late payment charge of £150 is payable.

 

Other methods automatically renew.

Just had my email and it says:

As you have previously paid by Direct Debit we will automatically renew your licence on or around the 14th May 2018 before your current licence expires.

This seems to contradict Alan's which says If you pay by direct debit please note that your licence will no longer automatically renew

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3 minutes ago, dor said:

Just had my email and it says:

As you have previously paid by Direct Debit we will automatically renew your licence on or around the 14th May 2018 before your current licence expires.

This seems to contradict Alan's which says If you pay by direct debit please note that your licence will no longer automatically renew

It would be/ is slightly bizarre if DD did not result in automatic renewal and use of a card did, that's the reverse of what most people expect. Anything I expect to be renewing (car tax disc, car insurance, family sponsorship and subs for Frome FM) is DD, and these are all monthly, the only regular payment I have that is card based is for my storage unit and this is through GoCardless. I wouldn't expect submission of my card details to result in a regular payment UNLESS I specifically agreed to it: which usually I don't.

The discount for DD is sensible, indeed the lack of it is the reason I haven't used it to date.

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20 hours ago, 1st ade said:

Which brings an interesting ethical conundrum: -

  • If you shop them, they can be fined (quite a lot of money) - Where does that come from? licence holders (or by cutting services further)
  • If you don't shop them they are "getting away with it"

Not quite on-topic but as for where the money is to come from....

It, being a fabulous day in London, I just came back from an hour's lunchtime walk along the Paddington arm of the GU near where I work just North of the A40.

My walk along the canal took me past about 30 boats moored along the tow path (Continuous Cruisers probably) and was astounded that at least 80% of them were not displaying up-to-date licences (some were proudly displaying licences that expired in 2015, 2016 and 2017). Clearly CRT are doing nothing to police this but think of the money not being collected?

Thankfully, the rest of us can carry on sponsoring those that don't pay. If you don't tax your car but carry on driving it, it can be seized and crushed. Shame the same thing can't happen to some of these guys.

Mustn't be grumpy, it's a lovely day B)

Stephen

 

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3 hours ago, Stephen Jeavons said:

Not quite on-topic but as for where the money is to come from....

It, being a fabulous day in London, I just came back from an hour's lunchtime walk along the Paddington arm of the GU near where I work just North of the A40.

My walk along the canal took me past about 30 boats moored along the tow path (Continuous Cruisers probably) and was astounded that at least 80% of them were not displaying up-to-date licences (some were proudly displaying licences that expired in 2015, 2016 and 2017). Clearly CRT are doing nothing to police this but think of the money not being collected?

Thankfully, the rest of us can carry on sponsoring those that don't pay. If you don't tax your car but carry on driving it, it can be seized and crushed. Shame the same thing can't happen to some of these guys.

Mustn't be grumpy, it's a lovely day B)

Stephen

 

Some people take delight in displaying out of date licences whilst actually having a current one.

The only way to see if a boat actually is licenced is to use the CRT licence checker.

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/boating/licensing/boat-check

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4 hours ago, Stephen Jeavons said:

Not quite on-topic but as for where the money is to come from....

It, being a fabulous day in London, I just came back from an hour's lunchtime walk along the Paddington arm of the GU near where I work just North of the A40.

My walk along the canal took me past about 30 boats moored along the tow path (Continuous Cruisers probably) and was astounded that at least 80% of them were not displaying up-to-date licences (some were proudly displaying licences that expired in 2015, 2016 and 2017). Clearly CRT are doing nothing to police this but think of the money not being collected?

Thankfully, the rest of us can carry on sponsoring those that don't pay. If you don't tax your car but carry on driving it, it can be seized and crushed. Shame the same thing can't happen to some of these guys.

Mustn't be grumpy, it's a lovely day B)

Stephen

 

How do you know that those boats displaying out of date or no licences aren't actually licensed? There is a legal requirement to display your licence, but the reality is CRT rarely bother if it has been paid. 

And of course none of the cars you refer to display a current tax disc.

Edited by David Mack
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17 hours ago, cuthound said:

Some people take delight in displaying out of date licences whilst actually having a current one.

The only way to see if a boat actually is licenced is to use the CRT licence checker.

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/boating/licensing/boat-check

Really? Why on earth would you want to keep displaying an out of date licence if you'd just spent good money on a current one?  However, I'll jot down the numbers next time and see if you're right

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16 hours ago, David Mack said:

And of course none of the cars you refer to display a current tax disc.

They don't have to. DVLA know who hasn't paid and will chase it up. Do CRT bother doing this? How could they? These guys keep moving.

Honest folk pay up, others get away with it because they can. The state of some of the boats I saw, there is no way they would pass a safety test. As for insurance (joke)

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53 minutes ago, Stephen Jeavons said:

Really? Why on earth would you want to keep displaying an out of date licence if you'd just spent good money on a current one?  However, I'll jot down the numbers next time and see if you're right

Few will have a printer on board, and it still seems pretty hit and miss if you do a renewal whether CRT will still send out a paper licence by post or not.  My laminator is broken, and ink-jet printed paper does not survive in our port-holes very well.

For various reasons, (not the least that CRT say they no longer need to see paper licences displayed), neither of my boats have current licences displayed.  Please look them up if they are bothering you! (67061 & 501286).

48 minutes ago, Stephen Jeavons said:

They don't have to. DVLA know who hasn't paid and will chase it up. Do CRT bother doing this? How could they? These guys keep moving.

Honest folk pay up, others get away with it because they can. The state of some of the boats I saw, there is no way they would pass a safety test. As for insurance (joke)


You are jumping to a large number of conclusions based on your own prejudices, and my guess is that in the vast majority of cases you are just plain wrong. 

And if it is established that a boat is licensed, (and there is little doubt the majority of them are, despite your view of "the state of them"), then they can't obtain that licence without holding a valid BSS.  One implies the other.

Are you a member of the IWA, by any chance? :)

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57 minutes ago, Stephen Jeavons said:

They don't have to. DVLA know who hasn't paid and will chase it up. Do CRT bother doing this? How could they?

DVLA know based on the vehicle registration number.  So do CRT.  If the handheld computer says a boat is licensed they do not care if you are displaying the paper licence.

21 hours ago, Stephen Jeavons said:

about 30 boats moored along the tow path (Continuous Cruisers probably)

1 hour ago, Stephen Jeavons said:

These guys keep moving.

Well yes, they would. That is what continuous cruisers do!

1 hour ago, Stephen Jeavons said:

The state of some of the boats I saw, there is no way they would pass a safety test.

If you can do a BSS test with one glance at a boat you should consider registering as an examiner. 

I have seen many shiny pretty boats that have lethal gas or fuel systems on board, and many complete wrecks that sail through the BSS with flying colours - it all depends on the standard of work and the priorities of the owner.  I agree that many of the "scruffy" boats might not be very good boats, but the BSS does not cover paint finish and brass polishing, just the safety checklist.

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Ok, point taken about printers etc. I now understand why some don't display their licences and NO I am not a member of IWA. 

Nevertheless why continue to display an old 2015 licence?

I can understand not displaying a current licence if its not mandatory. I'm clearly weird for displaying mine by the sounds of it. Please tell me how an un-licenced boat is identified when it neither displays licence or registration number (which I thought WAS mandatory). I saw at least 3 like this yesterday.

I humbly apologize for perceived predjuces. I didn't intend to offend, I was merely voicing an observation.

Stephen

 

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2 minutes ago, Stephen Jeavons said:

I can understand not displaying a current licence if its not mandatory. I'm clearly weird for displaying mine by the sounds of it. 

It is technically the law that it must be displayed, subject to a £100(?) fine, but CRT do not seem to care if you display it or not.

2 minutes ago, Stephen Jeavons said:

Please tell me how an un-licenced boat is identified when it neither displays licence or registration number (which I thought WAS mandatory). I saw at least 3 like this yesterday

That is one of my bugbears too.  I never care about licences being displayed, but do wonder how CRT identify "stealth" boats with no registration number displayed.  Our registration number is taped in the cabin windows until we finish painting and have it on the cabin sides, so it is not difficult to do it.

I have never seen a definitive answer if these unknown boats are included in the ~3% of unlicensed boats CRT report in their latest figures. 

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29 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

I have never seen a definitive answer if these unknown boats are included in the ~3% of unlicensed boats CRT report in their latest figures. 

I can only assume they are not.

How would they be able to check if they are licenced, if no registration number is visible ?

( It makes the figure look better to assume they are all licenced).

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9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I can only assume they are not.

How would they be able to check if they are licenced, if no registration number is visible ?

( It makes the figure look better to assume they are all licenced).

They could still count them though - I know there is an entry on the handheld tablet to flag a boat not displaying a registration number as we once got an email telling us we needed to display one on the 1970's cruiser.

As the plate has been on the boat since they introduced the registration numbers in the 1980's I did query that one, asking them to please check again!

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In an area like London, I think you could well be surprised at just how much those gathering the data know about the boats on their patch, whether clearly marked with an index number and/or name or not.

Just because you or I can't tell what boat it is, certainly doesn't mean they don't know - often they will be only too familiar.

It is certainly naive to think that CRT will ignore a boat that is not obviously identifiable by some marking.  Enforcement in London is undoubtedly as tight now as it has ever been, and I don't think many people are able to slip anonymously through the net.

Out in the sticks maybe, sometimes, but not in London.

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3 hours ago, Stephen Jeavons said:

Really? Why on earth would you want to keep displaying an out of date licence if you'd just spent good money on a current one?  However, I'll jot down the numbers next time and see if you're right

...And I did. Took a walk again today (great out there isn't it?). I jotted down the numbers of " boats of interest" and out of 25, only 5 came up as not being licenced on the CRT checker so I must eat humble pie. I was not aware that so many didn't display current licences even though they had them.

Such a small sample is not statistically representative of the whole but it amounts to 20% unlicenced craft PLUS a question mark over a further 6 boats with no markings whatsoever.

Still amounts to quite a lot of money.

The above is inside the M25 so I guess it counts as London. 

Stephen

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Going Back to the OP, I was caught-out by auto renewal 2 weeks early back in February.  I had licensed my boat for 3 months at a time up until then.  As I was funded-up in February, I intended to get an annual license, but was auto-renewed for 3 months.  (I too missed the link to opt-out, or maybe just wasn't expecting it to happen 2 weeks before expiry).  If I'm not funded-up for subsequent renewals, I'll have to stick with the 3 month license, which will cost me £100 more over the course of a year.  So not happy.

On the subject of displaying a license, I don't always - as others have commented, most boats don't have printers.  Last summer, moored on the N Oxford or Coventry (can't remember which) a CRT inspector knocked on my boat to enquire why my license wasn't displayed.  Explaining as above, I offered to show him the emailed license on my laptop, which he declined as unnecessary.  He did suggest a note in the license holder giving the license number.  Maybe his handheld gadget couldn't get a signal?

Maybe displaying a handwritten note of the license details is not a bad idea, if just to placate irate towpath walkers (Stephen?...)

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3 minutes ago, Marshian said:

Going Back to the OP, I was caught-out by auto renewal 2 weeks early back in February.  I had licensed my boat for 3 months at a time up until then.  As I was funded-up in February, I intended to get an annual license, but was auto-renewed for 3 months.  (I too missed the link to opt-out, or maybe just wasn't expecting it to happen 2 weeks before expiry).  If I'm not funded-up for subsequent renewals, I'll have to stick with the 3 month license, which will cost me £100 more over the course of a year.  So not happy.

On the subject of displaying a license, I don't always - as others have commented, most boats don't have printers.  Last summer, moored on the N Oxford or Coventry (can't remember which) a CRT inspector knocked on my boat to enquire why my license wasn't displayed.  Explaining as above, I offered to show him the emailed license on my laptop, which he declined as unnecessary.  He did suggest a note in the license holder giving the license number.  Maybe his handheld gadget couldn't get a signal?

Maybe displaying a handwritten note of the license details is not a bad idea, if just to placate irate towpath walkers (Stephen?...)

That's an interesting point, and another one that needs raising with CRT - I too have sometimes done short term for financial/cash flow reasons and the autorenewal assumes you want the same license again. Currently I've got Juno on an annual licence and Lutine on 3 months, because I'm trying to get them apart in the calender and they were renewing within a month of each other.

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4 minutes ago, Marshian said:

Maybe displaying a handwritten note of the license details is not a bad idea, if just to placate irate towpath walkers (Stephen?...)

I think the findings in my post above (45) vindicate my initial observations about non-paying boaters. We complain about canal and lock maintenance. CRT need the money, go figure. I'm sure everyone on this forum are above reproach and pay their dues. It's the others we should all be concerned about (shouldn't we?)  

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On 4/19/2018 at 14:29, Stephen Jeavons said:

...And I did. Took a walk again today (great out there isn't it?). I jotted down the numbers of " boats of interest" and out of 25, only 5 came up as not being licenced on the CRT checker so I must eat humble pie. I was not aware that so many didn't display current licences even though they had them.

Such a small sample is not statistically representative of the whole but it amounts to 20% unlicenced craft PLUS a question mark over a further 6 boats with no markings whatsoever.

Still amounts to quite a lot of money.

The above is inside the M25 so I guess it counts as London. 

Stephen

The latest CRT numbers, only recently published show licence evasion rate overall across the country being at 3.1%, with London regionally the worst at 5.1%

Whilst it is possible to question the absolute accuracy of those numbers, I have never had any reason based on many conversations with CRT in various meetings to doubt they are very far off.

However it is certainly not accurate to look at 25 boats not displaying a current licence, and to conclude that because 5 of them come up as unlicensed that the evasion rate in that area is anything like 20%

Stating the "bleedin' obvious", to make any kind of claim at all, you would have to include all the boats that are displaying a current licence(!)

As I said before, you are also assuming that CRT don't know the identity of the boats that appear not to carry an identification at all.  I bet that isn't so, and that in most cases CRT are well aware exactly what boats they are dealing with.

Whilst I can't condone unlicensed boats, CRT (and BW before them), have always had to strike some kind of balance between trying to pursue each and every one, and the actual costs, (particularly in terms of number of people employed) of actually doing so.  At some point it starts to cost more to go after them, than to not do so, and of course if the end result is still that they can't pay, and the boat is seized, it still costs CRT, rather than bringing in much needed revenue. (We all pay for those attempts where they don't get a result).

Obviously the counter to that is that is people see others getting away with it, they are more likely to be tempted to try the same themselves.  The effects of strong enforcement can of course be a deterrent to others.

I suggest it is a very difficult balance, rather than necessarily always assuming that CRT are being unduly lax on the issue.


 

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