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European withdrawal bill effect on boating


Phoenix_V

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From hansard

227BB: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause—

“Recreational boating

(1) Before exit day, a Minister of the Crown must lay before both Houses of Parliament a report setting out the extent to which, and how, the rights currently enjoyed by recreational boaters from the United Kingdom in the EU will be maintained after exit day.(2) The report under subsection (1) must include consideration of—(a) the ability of recreational craft to retain Union Goods status;(b) the ability of UK recreational craft that do not have Union Goods status to continue to be able to visit the EU without being subject to an 18-month restriction on Temporary Admission procedures for relief on customs duties and VAT provided they do not change ownership;(c) the ability of recreational craft to travel between the United Kingdom and the EU without being subject to border controls;(d) the ability of UK citizens who are accredited as Royal Yachting Association instructors to continue to work on a seasonal basis in EU member States for such purposes.”

 
  • My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, is unable to attend, so I will move Amendment 227BB in his stead. This amendment represents something of a change of scene from what we have been discussing this evening, relating as it does to the future of the recreational boating sector following the UK’s departure from the EU. But this is an important sector for us. It is not just about the estimated 3.5 million people who take part in boating activity in the UK every year. It is also a thriving business sector, with the recreational boating and marine sectors being a success story in the UK. In 2015-16, the marine industry contributed about £1.3 billion to the UK economy, which adds up to around 33,000 full-time employees and more than 4,500 businesses. We should realise also that this is often in areas where alternative employment is not always available, so the sector is very important to the communities in which it exists.

     

    The industry currently enjoys the benefits of free movement of people and the absence of customs borders between the UK and other EU countries. There are then, unsurprisingly, a number of issues arising from Brexit, causing significant uncertainty to both recreational boaters and the marine industry. I know that the Royal Yachting Association, the RYA, and British Marine have been in contact with DExEU and other government departments in relation to these issues. Briefly, and for the benefit of the House, I will set out the key issues.

     

    The first is the ability of recreational craft to retain what is called Union goods status, which allows continuous free navigation around the waters of the EU. The second is the nature of the maritime border control regime between the UK and the EU after Brexit. The third is the ability of UK citizens who have RYA qualifications to travel freely to and from the EU for work that is often seasonal.

     

    The Union goods issue requires a little explanation, so I will go into that detail, if noble Lords will excuse me. Vessels and all the equipment on them, such as computers and electronic gear, that enter the EU from non-EU countries are required to pay customs duties and VAT unless the owner can show that they are entitled to exemption. This is not the case if the equipment has Union goods status, which means that it is treated as duty paid. Pre Brexit, vessels moving between the UK and the rest of the EU are treated as Union goods, provided that VAT and customs duties were paid when the vessel first entered the EU. After Brexit, vessels moving between the EU and the UK, and vice versa, should qualify for a temporary relief from duty—but only if the vessel stays for fewer than 18 months in the country in question. So UK citizens who keep their boats in, say, Greece, would find that they would have to pay all the duties or move completely outside the EU before they could re-enter for another 18 months. The result of this is clearly not good for the Britons who have to keep moving their boats around to avoid paying up to 20% of the boat’s value in duties. It is also not good for countries such as Greece that are hosting this tourist trade. Additionally, when boats are moving in long-term passage within EU waters, there might also be customs duty when moving from one EU country to another EU country. It is not clear how that will unfold.

     

    Noble Lords will appreciate that these issues may not necessarily be front of mind and addressed in the broader negotiations on customs and border controls. Accordingly, this amendment asks the Government to produce a report to Parliament in advance of 29 March 2019. This report would set out the rights and freedoms that recreational boaters currently enjoy and how they would be maintained after the UK’s withdrawal from the EU. It would provide a clear opportunity for the Government to offer much-needed certainty to the thousands of recreational boaters—and of course to the marine businesses as well.

     

    Without that reassurance, there is potential for significant damage. Very briefly, that significant damage comes in terms of costs and the administrative burden faced by boaters and business, with associated significant damage to the resale market for boats. It also causes new maritime border controls, which could be disproportionate and compromise navigational safety—and, as I said before, RYA instructors could find it difficult to do seasonal work elsewhere.

     

    The RYA and British Marine have been in touch, and I know that they are ready to negotiate. None the less, the importance of this sector to communities all around the country should not be overlooked when there is so much else going on. We have talked about the need to negotiate everything in such a short time, and this is just one more thing that the Government need to place on their list. Before the formal departure from the EU it is vital that the Government commit publicly to setting out how they will defend the interests of UK boaters and marine businesses. I will be interested to hear the Minister’s response to this amendment.

     
     
  • My Lords, my name is not associated with this amendment but I am a regular attender of the London Boat Show at the invitation of British Marine. I have a specific question for the Minister to answer when he sums up. The record figures for the export of yachts and recreational craft this year were spectacular. But a source of concern to British Marine once Britain has left the European Union is the extent to which Britain will remain aligned with the legislation. I mention that because we transposed the recreational craft directive onto the statute book. The British Marine Federation was instrumental in making sure that that directive did not cause too much damage to our industry in terms of the standards with which it had to comply. Will the Minister assure the House that we will continue to align ourselves with future legislation to make sure that our main export market for recreational craft will still be there and that we will have some means of ensuring that the concerns of the British marine industry can be made known when future statutory instruments are being negotiated?

     
     
  • My Lords, I declare my interest as a recreational boater and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for proposing the amendment of my noble friend Lord Berkeley. Everything that he said seemed entirely reasonable and I am sure that the whole House awaits the Minister’s concession on this point.

     
     
  • My Lords, in moving this amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Fox, said that it may not be at the front of everyone’s minds. But as often happens in these circumstances, this particular issue is almost the nexus of all the key issues affecting withdrawal from the EU, whether it be our mutual recognition of certain types of goods for the purposes of customs duty, the precise arrangements and procedures for ensuring cross-border security or the mutual recognition of professional qualifications. So in truth, one might argue that this is a key amendment in many respects. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, is right to remind us of the significance of this sector. It is a substantial contributor to the Exchequer and a major employer. It is also, as a number of noble Lords have noted, a source of much pleasure, and we should not lose sight of that.

     

    In responding to this debate it is important that I am very clear, so perhaps I may turn directly to the specific question raised by my noble friend Lady McIntosh. She asked whether we will continue to align with future legislation within the EU. I am afraid that that is a commitment I cannot give at this moment because it will be determined by the ongoing negotiations and our future relationship at that point. However, it is important to stress that we are in very regular contact with the British marine sector and are attentive to the issues that it is raising. I hope that in saying that, my noble friend will recognise that it is our intention to be very careful as we take this matter forward.

     
     

9.30 pm

I shall address some of the other issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Fox. It is important to stress that the effect of withdrawal on recreational boating will, along with many other matters, depend upon the outcome of the UK’s negotiations, and I am sure that the noble Lord will respect that. In truth, I believe that there is an appetite on both sides of the discussion to ensure that the relationship is workable and I hope that that will be maintained and sustained going forward.

The noble Lord raised some specific issues with regard to the recognition of qualifications, in particular those associated with the Royal Yachting Association. It is important to note that Royal Yachting Association certificates are not covered by the mutual recognition of professional qualifications directive. As a consequence, holders of these certificates need to check the certification requirements of the local port state control administration prior to entering its jurisdiction. I think that that is something we should have been able to do in the past, but we have not been able to address it at this moment.

On the mutual recognition of certain types of goods, that refers specifically to the customs question. I am sure that the noble Lord is aware that that is perhaps the beating heart of much of what being discussed in your Lordships’ House. I wish that I could give greater solace to the noble Lord in this regard, but unfortunately in this instance many of these issues must await the outcome of the negotiations. However, I stress that he should be aware that the issue of the wider boating question is one which the UK Government take very seriously indeed and we will not lose sight of it as the negotiations unfold. I hope, on the basis of my response, that he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

 
  • The noble Lord started by saying that this is the nexus of the issues virtually across the piece. He is painting a very dull picture of the future if he cannot assure us that in this area we are able to achieve the objectives of the amendment.

     
     
  • I thank the noble Lord for his probe in this regard. This is, if you like, the epitome of the challenges we are facing, but unfortunately it is larger than the individual amendment can recognise and what it seeks to do, which is to have Ministers place before us a single report setting out both the current arrangements and thereafter the arrangements that we secure through negotiation. The arrangements we secure through negotiation will be detailed for this House and will be iterated so that we understand what they are, and they will emerge from that negotiation. It is not our intention to downplay the significance of these issues, but we must recognise that they play a part in a wider question, in particular when it comes to the customs issues. On that basis, I still hope that the noble Lord will be able to withdraw his amendment.

     
     
  • My Lords, I thank the Minister for demonstrating his sensitivity to this issue, which will be reassuring to some extent for boat owners and boating businesses around the UK, so there may be some solace in that. The amendment is not seeking a running commentary on the negotiations. The Minister is correct to say that this goes to the nub of the customs and free movement issues as they unfold, but I think that providing a promise of some kind to keep the industry informed about what is going on is very important. Obviously we will look at the Minister’s response in detail in Hansard, and with that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

     
     

Amendment 227BB withdrawn.

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Well that's as clear as mud. At least it shows that there is some awareness of the potential disaster that brexit can cause to the whole industry as well as individuals who are now caught up in a mess not of their making. I wrote to my MP about this exact problem but received a totally unsatisfactory reply - no surprise there. As with all things Brexit we are no longer in control of our own affairs and we just have to hope that our own government attaches some importance to the issue and we also have to hope that the EU sees some advantage in maintaining the current arrangements. Thanks for posting this by the way Phoenix V

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32 minutes ago, Bee said:

Well that's as clear as mud. At least it shows that there is some awareness of the potential disaster that brexit can cause to the whole industry as well as individuals who are now caught up in a mess not of their making. I wrote to my MP about this exact problem but received a totally unsatisfactory reply - no surprise there. As with all things Brexit we are no longer in control of our own affairs and we just have to hope that our own government attaches some importance to the issue and we also have to hope that the EU sees some advantage in maintaining the current arrangements. Thanks for posting this by the way Phoenix V

Yes agreed. Good to see it all out on the table. It's so easy today to flit between the U.K and France and round and round the med, but post Brexit the paperwork would be a nightmare. Nice to see it being addressed.......but of little interest to U.K. canals unless you are moving boats to the Eu.

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15 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Yes agreed. Good to see it all out on the table. It's so easy today to flit between the U.K and France and round and round the med, but post Brexit the paperwork would be a nightmare. Nice to see it being addressed.......but of little interest to U.K. canals unless you are moving boats to the Eu.

Interesting for us lumpy water boaters but of little relevance to this forum.

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37 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Interesting for us lumpy water boaters but of little relevance to this forum.

Sorry I thought this was "canalworld forum" not "little englander canal forum"

There are quite a few members on here that boat inland  in Europe and I would hope the rest of you might have at least a little sympathy/interest in the predicament we have been put in.

Edited by Phoenix_V
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3 hours ago, Bee said:

Well that's as clear as mud. At least it shows that there is some awareness of the potential disaster that brexit can cause to the whole industry as well as individuals who are now caught up in a mess not of their making. I wrote to my MP about this exact problem but received a totally unsatisfactory reply - no surprise there. As with all things Brexit we are no longer in control of our own affairs and we just have to hope that our own government attaches some importance to the issue and we also have to hope that the EU sees some advantage in maintaining the current arrangements. Thanks for posting this by the way Phoenix V

The thing that really worries me is the huge list of unforeseen consequences generally, regarding Brexit, but the free movement of goods is a benefit we have all become used to enjoying, whether for business or leisure. 

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2 hours ago, Phoenix_V said:

Sorry I thought this was "canalworld forum" not "little englander canal forum"

There are quite a few members on here that boat inland  in Europe and I would hope the rest of you might have at least a little sympathy/interest in the predicament we have been put in.

The potential 'problems' are for UK boats entering 'foreign' waters, or for UK instructors wanting to teach in Foreign countries, or UK boat builders having to comply with foreign build specifications.

I cannot see what effect Brexit will have on boaters & boats already in/on European waters.

Do the French boaters get upset when the price of UK red diesel increases by 2p a litre, or C&RT increase licence fees on 'fatty-boats' ?

 

If you could highlight any specifics of your predicament that will have a negative effect on boats already, based and registered in Europe then I will gladly review my sympathies.

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11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The potential 'problems' are for UK boats entering 'foreign' waters, or for UK instructors wanting to teach in Foreign countries, or UK boat builders having to comply with foreign build specifications.

I cannot see what effect Brexit will have on boaters & boats already in/on European waters.

Do the French boaters get upset when the price of UK red diesel increases by 2p a litre, or C&RT increase licence fees on 'fatty-boats' ?

 

If you could highlight any specifics of your predicament that will have a negative effect on boats already, based and registered in Europe then I will gladly review my sympathies.

Not sure why you are not interested in the fate of those who may wish to move to Europe in the future, but in the here and now what happens if Belgium customs inspect my boat after brexit and say I have to pay duty on it, if I return to UK, your boat has been gone over 3 years please pay duty on it, if I return to UK and then back to Euroland. Nor am I happy that I will presumably not be allowed to stay over 3 months even if my boat is.

If you don't care about the effects of Brexit on your fellow countrymen then please ignore this thread.

 

Edited by Phoenix_V
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7 minutes ago, Phoenix_V said:

Not sure why you are not interested in the fate of those who may wish to move to Europe in the future, but in the here and now what happens if Belgium customs inspect my boat after brexit and say I have to pay duty on it, if I return to UK, your boat has been gone over 3 years please pay duty on it, if I return to UK and then back to Euroland. Nor am I happy that I will presumably not be allowed to stay over 3 months even if my boat is.

If you don't care about the effects of Brexit on your fellow countrymen then please ignore this thread.

 

If I go to another country I expect to abide by their T&Cs - if I don't accept them I don't go.

In South Asia for example you have to regularly leave the country. There is even a thriving industry of Taxi drivers collecting up 'foreigners' passports and driving over (say) the border between Vietnam and Cambodia, getting all the passports stamped and then coming back.

You do not have to live outside the UK - You adapt & comply with the requirements of the world you have decided to live in - it is no more than we are expecting foreigners to do on coming to the UK.

 

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2 hours ago, Phoenix_V said:

Sorry I thought this was "canalworld forum" not "little englander canal forum"

There are quite a few members on here that boat inland  in Europe and I would hope the rest of you might have at least a little sympathy/interest in the predicament we have been put in.

I think you've had to work hard to take umbrage here and in your subsequent post Phoenix, and your sweeping repost is probably worse than the original sin you perceived.  I'm one of "the rest of you", I do have both sympathy and interest (as I'm sure many of us here do) so I'd prefer not to be tarred by the brush you're wielding.  We all share boating interests, and what affects the one often affects the many, so it's wee bit counter-productive to divide and conquer ourselves. :boat: 

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19 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

I think you've had to work hard to take umbrage here and in your subsequent post Phoenix, and your sweeping repost is probably worse than the original sin you perceived.  I'm one of "the rest of you", I do have both sympathy and interest (as I'm sure many of us here do) so I'd prefer not to be tarred by the brush you're wielding.  We all share boating interests, and what affects the one often affects the many, so it's wee bit counter-productive to divide and conquer ourselves. :boat: 

As one of the visiting boats (that actually takes my boat from the UK to Europe) I expect I will be much more affected than those that have a boat permanently based and registered in Europe.

I will abide by the rules and will ensure there is no red-diesel in my main tank, & that I have all correct ships-papers (including the European VAT Paid certificate) and crew papers on board

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 You adapt & comply with the requirements of the world you have decided to live in - it is no more than we are expecting foreigners to do on coming to the UK.

 

Indeed some of the stories of how we treat foreigners are shameful, is there some reason why we should not expect better of our government

21 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As one of the visiting boats (that actually takes my boat from the UK to Europe) I expect I will be much more affected than those that have a boat permanently based and registered in Europe.

I will abide by the rules and will ensure there is no red-diesel in my main tank, & that I have all correct ships-papers (including the European VAT Paid certificate) and crew papers on board

Bully for you, if you don't stay over 3 months it is hard to see how you will be affected

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45 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

I think you've had to work hard to take umbrage here and in your subsequent post Phoenix, and your sweeping repost is probably worse than the original sin you perceived.  I'm one of "the rest of you", I do have both sympathy and interest (as I'm sure many of us here do) so I'd prefer not to be tarred by the brush you're wielding.  We all share boating interests, and what affects the one often affects the many, so it's wee bit counter-productive to divide and conquer ourselves. :boat: 

I was replying to this comment "but of little relevance to this forum. " it clearly is relevant.

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3 hours ago, Phoenix_V said:

Sorry I thought this was "canalworld forum" not "little englander canal forum"

There are quite a few members on here that boat inland  in Europe and I would hope the rest of you might have at least a little sympathy/interest in the predicament we have been put in.

If you take it upon yourself to risk boating in foreign countries then if the goal posts move ie if the eu were to collapse or indeed if your country CHOOSES to leave it then you have to accept the consequences. As far as I can see boating in th UK will probably not change but if it does it will be for the better. I went into the pub industry just as it realy started to tumble but you just have to adjust or do something else. Stop whining and look forward to something positive re leaving the crock of crap that is the eu and positive is what it is :cheers:

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I kept boats in French and Spanish marinas before the UK joined the EU and there was no difficulty satisfying the customs people in those days.   I think the future problem will be for new boats built after Brexit when they will probably not be VAT paid but will no doubt have some type of purchase tax paid instead and will not be allowed to stay long without paying VAT.   This could affect people who want to move their narrowboats to the French canals in future.

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21 minutes ago, Phoenix_V said:

I was replying to this comment "but of little relevance to this forum. " it clearly is relevant.

Yes, I recognise that. My point was that not everyone here shares that sentiment and your repost rather unfairly suggested that we all did. By all means have a discussion with Alan about it, but please don't tar everyone with the same brush. :)

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1 minute ago, Phoenix_V said:

No, it is possible for our government to mitigate the worst of those consequences  if persuaded to, without betraying the "will of the people"

Fair enough I dont have a problem with that providing they dont waste much time on stuff for people who have no real interest in Britain and more in the eu.

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2 minutes ago, Phoenix_V said:

No, it is possible for our government to mitigate the worst of those consequences  if persuaded to, without betraying the "will of the people"

I am still interested in exactly what consequences you perceive that you will be suffering.

Unless you are planning to buy a UK manufactured boat and import it into Europe I cannot see any thing that personally affects an existing boat operator in Europe.

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28 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I am still interested in exactly what consequences you perceive that you will be suffering.

Unless you are planning to buy a UK manufactured boat and import it into Europe I cannot see any thing that personally affects an existing boat operator in Europe.

here's one to be going on with "(a) the ability of recreational craft to retain Union Goods status;"

OK I'm already in Europe so I might be alright Jack or I might not, who knows? but what about movement between EU and UK in future, or CWDF members planning to do so in the future

Edited by Phoenix_V
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33 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Unless you are planning to buy a UK manufactured boat and import it into Europe I cannot see any thing that personally affects an existing boat operator in Europe.

Read the Hansard report then. Most of us who enjoy cruising in continental Europe are not "importing" our vessels - we are simply cruising in another part of the EU, and under present Law we have Union Goods status. Once that ceases the tax and non-EU visitor implications will cause difficulties. Those who presently own craft will presumably have documentation proving that VAT was paid within the EU, even if that is at zero%, and should remain OK on that score. People buying a UK registered boat after we become Little England will not be so lucky. The long-stay visa problems will impact on all of us though.

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If I go to another country I expect to abide by their T&Cs - if I don't accept them I don't go.

In South Asia for example you have to regularly leave the country. There is even a thriving industry of Taxi drivers collecting up 'foreigners' passports and driving over (say) the border between Vietnam and Cambodia, getting all the passports stamped and then coming back.

You do not have to live outside the UK - You adapt & comply with the requirements of the world you have decided to live in - it is no more than we are expecting foreigners to do on coming to the UK.

 

Off topic but relevant to boating, there used to be a thriving trade for boats between Brunei and Sarawak taking migrant workers back to Malaysia for a few hours for the same purpose, normally they were in Limbang for half an hour getting their papers stamped but one worker on the boat I was on misjudged it and got stuck overnight.  

Back on topic we export a lot through leisure boating - partly the boats themselves but also the ability for boats to visit us here and spend their Euros, probably won't be to badly affected by the removal of the single market (although the perceived barrier may have more of an impact on the actual one) but heaven help us if we start having currency restrictions or anything daft like that. 

I also suspect things like cigarette smuggling may climb sharply...

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3 minutes ago, Phoenix_V said:

here's one to be going on with (a) the ability of recreational craft to retain Union Goods status;

 

I read this requirement (a) as being for the importation of 'new' boats into the EU and the request that they be free of tariffs - so how does this affect your current boat & boating

8 hours ago, Phoenix_V said:

..........the ability of recreational craft to travel between the United Kingdom and the EU without being subject to border controls

There are currently 1000s of UK boats visiting the EU but I cannot envisage there being many (any ?) boats visiting Europe from the Canals of the UK - but, should such boats cross the channel, to an EU country they would be subject to the same rules as any boat visiting from any non-EU country.

Any boats from any of the worlds canals that are non-EU based will have the same restrictions and T&Cs to comply with.

 

8 hours ago, Phoenix_V said:

.....the ability of UK recreational craft that do not have Union Goods status to continue to be able to visit the EU

The concern (appears to me) to be the status of visiting boats, not the status of boats already legally registered and operated in the EU

 

1 minute ago, Tam & Di said:

Read the Hansard report then. Most of us who enjoy cruising in continental Europe are not "importing" our vessels - we are simply cruising in another part of the EU, and under present Law we have Union Goods status. Once that ceases the tax and non-EU visitor implications will cause difficulties. Those who presently own craft will presumably have documentation proving that VAT was paid within the EU, even if that is at zero%, and should remain OK on that score. People buying a UK registered boat after we become Little England will not be so lucky. The long-stay visa problems will impact on all of us though.

Union Goods status means what ?

Simply that it can cross borders with no tariffs being applied - it still must comply with EU construction and use regulations and still be VAT paid in an EU country.

Does not registering your vessel in the country then make it a (say) French boat rather than a UK boat ?

I know when we looked at leaving one of our boats down it Spain, it had to be Spanish registered and became a 'Vessel under the Spanish Flag'

Registration (Matriculación) under the Spanish flag is required for boats spending over 182 days a year in Spanish waters. The majority of Capitania Maritima (Maritime Authorities) are able to register/re-register vessels. The Commandancia de Marina Mercante can also carry out this procedure. The cost of registration includes a matriculation tax of 12 percent of the vessel's value.

Once the boat is locally registered the Skipper then also comes under Spanish Maritime Law and must have a qualification to suit the boat.

Licences fall into the following categories:

  • Patrón de Navegación Básica (PNB) (Basic Navigation Skipper)
    Licence to skipper a sailing yacht maximum 8 metres in length or a motor boat maximum 6 metres (with a motor appropriate to the size) provided the boats stay within 4 miles of the shore
  • Patrón de Embarcaciones de Recreo (PER) (Recreational Vessel's Skipper)
    Licence to skipper a motor boat up to 12 metres, within 12 miles of shore
  • Patrón de Yate (Yacht Master)
    Licence to skipper a yacht up to 20 metres within 60 miles of land
  • Capitán de Yate (Yacht Captain)
    No limitations
  • Patrón de Moto Náutica (Motor Boat Skipper)
    • Patrón de Moto Náutica C (licence C to skipper boats under 55 CV)
    • Patrón de Moto Náutica B (licence B to skipper boats between 55 CV and 110 CV)
    • Patrón de Moto Náutica A (licence A to skipper boats from 110 CV)

 

Both Spain & the UK are in the EU and the boat has 'union goods status' but this is not an optional registration. Once registered, the boat become 'Spanish' and UK sea-faring laws and regulations no longer apply to it.

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