National refuses to start

[RLWP]

Silly suggestion time - have you accidentally swapped the pipes to the injectors when you refitted the pump?

[roland elsdon]

Not being rude but having had pump off can it be 180 out on could you be injecting on the exhaust stroke rather than induction.. are the pump pipes to the correct injector...

Ha ha we had the same thought at the same time!!

[RLWP]

5 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

Not being rude but having had pump off can it be 180 out on could you be injecting on the exhaust stroke rather than induction.. are the pump pipes to the correct injector...

Ha ha we had the same thought at the same time!!

[Jrtm]

The pump only fits 1 way round due to the way its made. Will fit wrong way round but you know about it as the loob slot is in wrong place.

Cant get pipes on wrong way round it wont fit

[David Mack]

On an engine with conventional overhead valves it would be easy to take off the rocker cover and check that the injector squeak occurs at about the right time in relation to the valve movements, but I'm not sure it would be so easy on a National.

 

[zenataomm]

My old dad used to say "always go back to the last thing you touched before mending it until it was broken"

He also said "check the simplest thing first, if your engine is knocking, first check the tappets, then look to see if the sump has been bent in, finally think about bearings"

My favourite saying of his was "Never trust labels, just because a bus has OXO written on the outside it doesn't mean they sell it." 

[RLWP]

2 hours ago, zenataomm said:

"Never trust labels, just because a bus has OXO written on the outside it doesn't mean they sell it." 

That's where I have been going wrong! Who is Dennis then?

[Jrtm]

5 minutes ago, RLWP said:

That's where I have been going wrong! Who is Dennis then?

Dont know dennis but i has some nike trainers ive not seen them sence

[Victor Vectis]

28 minutes ago, RLWP said:

That's where I have been going wrong! Who is Dennis then?

Years ago a mate of mine managed to set his chimney on fire.

He said he was visited by a group of friendly men who arrived in a big red lorry called Dennis.

[Bee]

Might be back to basics time. I'm not familiar  with Nationals but with an injector out when does it squirt diesel? where is the piston? just a tad before top dead centre? or is it quite a long way before or even a bit after? . My bet is on the pump somehow not doing what it's supposed to when it should. Good luck with it anyway, nothing more depressing than a ton of stone cold engine that just sits there refusing to start.

[MtB]

The fact that it initially ran after the pump and injector re-build suggests the injection timing was roughly ok. The steady deterioration suggests the timing is moving progressively further away from correct.

OR, compression is falling off a cliff. 

Got a compression tester? 

[Jrtm]

New fuel pipes on way, not got a compression tester that will fit. Ill try again once pipes on

[bizzard]

Single or two shot National compression tester.      Remove injectors and replace with wine bottle corks, Depending on whether the injectors are vertically or horizontally mounted, arch yourself over them or stand in front of them. Try one cork first for a single shot. Press the starter and the cork should POP out under considerable force to strike you in the chest. If it hurts a lot that compression should be ok, if it doesn't compression is low.  Do the same with the other cylinder. If you a fiend for self harming yourself get two corks with the more solid cap head on them,''you will find these on bottles of port'' . Load both of these corks in the injector holes for a double barreled strike and, again press the starter. WHOP, WHOP. If the compression are of equal pressue the dents on your chest should be equally deep, measure the depth.  If neither cork pops out, no compression I'm afraid. This is just a basic test you understand. 

Edited March 27, 2018 by bizzard

[Jrtm]

9 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Single or two shot National compression tester.      Remove injectors and replace with wine bottle corks, Depending on whether the injectors are vertically or horizontally mounted, arch yourself over them or stand in front of them. Try one cork first for a single shot. Press the starter and the cork should POP out under considerable force to strike you in the chest. If it hurts a lot that compression should be ok, if it doesn't compression is low.  Do the same with the other cylinder. If you a fiend for self harming yourself get two corks with the more solid cap head on them,''you will find these on bottles of port'' . Load both of these corks in the injector holes for a double barreled strike and, again press the starter. WHOP, WHOP. If the compression are of equal pressue the dents on your chest should be equally deep, measure the depth.  If neither cork pops out, no compression I'm afraid. This is just a basic test you understand. 

You say press the starter!!! Um this didnt work my wife poked me and i just went ouch!!! She kept pressing harder on the starter and i ended up on the floor. At this point she give the starter a wack with a metal bar. All i can say is i think the starter broke.

lll give it a go but cant garentee its that easy by hand!

[TheBiscuits]

23 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Single or two shot National compression tester.      Remove injectors and replace with wine bottle corks, Depending on whether the injectors are vertically or horizontally mounted, arch yourself over them or stand in front of them. Try one cork first for a single shot. Press the starter and the cork should POP out under considerable force to strike you in the chest. If it hurts a lot that compression should be ok, if it doesn't compression is low.  Do the same with the other cylinder. If you a fiend for self harming yourself get two corks with the more solid cap head on them,''you will find these on bottles of port'' . Load both of these corks in the injector holes for a double barreled strike and, again press the starter. WHOP, WHOP. If the compression are of equal pressue the dents on your chest should be equally deep, measure the depth.  If neither cork pops out, no compression I'm afraid. This is just a basic test you understand. 

I do like any diagnostic test that starts with "drink two bottles of wine or port".

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by TheBiscuits

[billh]

He won't be able to shoot himself while turning engine by hand!

[Jrtm]

1 minute ago, billh said:

He won't be able to shoot himself while turning engine by hand!

WANTED

volunteer to be shot

WANTED

volunteers to do the shooting (bribes will be taken for wifes to take the stand but please be aware both holes will be plugged.)

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, billybobbooth said:

WANTED

volunteer to be shot

WANTED

volunteers to do the shooting (bribes will be taken for wifes to take the stand but please be aware both holes will be plugged.)

ooooohhhhh how rude

[billh]

Going back to your original problem, before anyone gets shot......

Have you got the knurled knob on the side of the governor in the right place for starting?There are 3 positions, start,run ,stop. The start position should allow the fuel  pump rack to go to maximum fuel . If you are trying to start in the run position, it will not allow excess fuel and be difficult or impossible to get going, not enough fuel for starting.If the adjustment of the control is wrong, try pulling the rack over and tying with a bit of wire or something but undo it straight away if the engine starts.

ETA, conversely if and when you get it started, running in the start position will cause loads of  black smoke every time you wind it on .

Edited March 27, 2018 by billh

[Jrtm]

Yes its in the most away position from the stop (biggest gap possable)

Ive tried starting with the brass stopper on the fuel pump arm both up (alowing the rack in the pump to give all its got) e.g. max fuel) ive also tried it with this brass stop down e.g. limeted but max fuel.

Ive also tried both of these with the engine set to idle on the speed lever (others have a speed wheel) thats conneted to the govener arm as well as both the brass stopper positions with the speed lever set about half way.

It will normally start with speed lever in idle, side wheel set to start (its normally run in start as it i put it in run it sometimes moves round and restricts the govener as it sometimes vibrates round if half way in run as it has a very slight loose spot but tight at start and stop) brass lever set in up so fuel rack is right forward.

Turn over slow ish around 10 times injector creak, turn faster 10-15 times, turn over fast as pos flick compression down normally start or cough, 4th time will normally start. If not 1 more it will.

Hot weather i turn over 10 times then just try and start on next go will normally start if not will next go,

Once running i dont even bother with brass bit just turn over fast flick lever and it goes.

The last few times i had the injectors out it was quite hard to start after,

Hope this sort of helps with how it normally starts.

Edited March 27, 2018 by billybobbooth

[MtB]

I'm afraid your engine has completely had it and needs to be replaced. I'll give you fifty quid for it as a favour, take it off your hands like.

Robbing myself blind at that price you realise...

  

[TheBiscuits]

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

I'm afraid your engine has completely had it and needs to be replaced. I'll give you fifty quid for it as a favour, take it off your hands like.

Robbing myself blind at that price you realise...

Do that special plumbers' inhaling whistle through the teeth thing as well.  The "that'll be expensive" noise.

[MtB]

(P.S. Anyone want to buy a National? Excellent nick, new injectors, £7,500 no offers. Just needs the injection timing sorting out... )

[Jrtm]

9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

(P.S. Anyone want to buy a National? Excellent nick, new injectors, £7,500 no offers. Just needs the injection timing sorting out... )

Is that + vat? Are you selling the starter motor with that too?

Edited March 27, 2018 by billybobbooth

[canalboat]

58 minutes ago, billybobbooth said:

 Turn over slow ish around 10 times injector creak, turn faster 10-15 times, turn over fast as pos flick compression down normally start or cough, 4th time will normally start. If not 1 more it will.

 

If you are going to turn it over that many times before flicking the compression down (usually 6 fast turns will do it) on one cylinder only first, then as an old boater once recommended,  in cold weather drain out half the oil so that the single cylinder has the least resistance against firing and you still had energy left to go again if it didn't fire. As soon as it is running on one cylinder, flick down the second and pour the oil back in.