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billybobbooth

National refuses to start

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Ok short vertion i had the pump and injectors cleaned and reset, engine was hard to start but ran, but would seam to be a bit up and down with revs but and smoky but did run did 2 4-5 hour boating.

I then fitted a thermostat system, on doing so i had to remove the injectors, not a problem in doing this i discovered the back injector had missed the seal washer and semi crushed a corner i beleive this stopped it running properly.

No problem removed cleaned seats replaced both washers refitted injectors bled system, turned over injector creak as should. Went to start and as normal took a few turn over week atempts and nothing (this is normal as will normally start on 3-4 attempt afectively 1-2 propper attemps but when cold engine can be a bit stiff so by 3-4 its freed up a bit)

Went to turn over properly and on 4th go it almost started but was bit hesitent turned over a few times on its own and stopped. Bit odd was as if no fuel or ran out of fuel but injectors still creaking as normal. Tried again to start and nothing not even a cough. After 2 hours of trying bleeding ect i gave up.

Went to boat today thought im fresh it will start injectors creaked turned over a few times as was warmer last night was quite easy to turn over. Went to start nothing as soon as you drop the compression leaver its like hitting a brick wall.

Ive removed the injectors and checked them there both giving out a matched mist sprey, ive done a check and both giving the same amout of fuel after 30 squirts. There sealing on the seats new washers fitted every time removed. There is def high compression you can turn it past the compression but its hard work.

The only thing i could find there was alot of moisture in the cyliders and head area so will give this a bit of heat to try and dry it out ive left it to air for now rather than being sealed up all day.

Ive checked the exhaust and its smoking so is trying to ignite but not firing but its very hard to keep turning over once dropped the compression leaver so it could be just be the high compression stopping it and it being me.

Can anyone think of any other ideas? Or thoughts?

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Take the injectors out, turn the engine over and see what comes out the injector holes

  • Greenie 1

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Blow lamp up the air intakes, warm it all up, it's still cold outside. I 'm surprised you haven't already  done that , what with having  had a Bollinger in the past:D.Have you got the excess fuel control set up  right ?

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Water in fuel?

Just too cold? Its a low compression engine really by biodiesel standards. Turn it over with injectors out to clear excess oil, then blow lamp hot air in as you spin to start as suggested by billh. 

I used a drop of paraffin down the inlet with an Ailsa Craig, and only a drop, worked well. 

Do not use acetone easy start, it destroys compression.

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I agree 100% not to use easy start having observed Colin hill starting Bootes many times. ( a cup of tea easy start sniff up each nostril easy start down intake and then a sodding Big Bang lots of smoke and erratic engine behaviour followed by General runningEnding with more tea.

however and this is where I sound an idiot, a one off test with easy start will prove its fuel rather than mechanical in nature, and allow you to focus your attention to the cause.

clearly you have compression and fuel so I would I'm afraid be worried about diesel bug or water...

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Ive turned over by hand with no injectors in got nothing out but could see the wet inside.

Ill be taking a blow torch with me today i didnt have one to try yesterday but this was my thought was its decided its too cold (odd as its started before in colder conditions)

I did think bad fuel but seams a bit odd to have gone off within a week is treated for diesel bug and water and has 2 filters but they will be due a change but normally do this in may june.

No no no no easy start it will never go near my engines! I use to boat with mike on chiswick and he used it once that was it, it refused to start unless used every time untill it was rebuild.

Yes compression is low compared with modern engines,

Youve given be more food for thought my mind was set on heat down intake.

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From a foggy memory, isn't the governor on the National a bit of a sod to set up properly?

Paraffin is much better than acetone ( easy engine wrecker start ) especially if it is a bit warm.

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Assume it's raw in raw out water wise.. You say it's wet inside is that diesel or water, if you had residual water in a gallery and it froze could it have done the head gasket.

mind you say you have big compression  are you sure you are not compressing water.

in which case defo don't use easy start..

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1 hour ago, roland elsdon said:

mind you say you have big compression  are you sure you are not compressing water.

Quite

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Are you certain that the injection timing is correct? Not familiar with the national but the symptoms sound like this could be a factor. From my own experience if you manage to start it the engine will run well enough, but starting is a real issue. 

I'd go along with the suggestion made above to start once on easy start, your engine is not going to suffer from one application. 

Edited by BWM

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Its def fuel in the cylinder as if you put a long reach lighter down there you can and smell the fumes that come off its def diesel, why my brain is on wet cylinders stopping it.

Govener has never been touched or injection timing.

I have found it to be a pain to start after the injectors have been out but not like this, its trying to do something as you get fully unburnt diesel smoke out of the exhaust after tyring, the only thing ive changed sence it last ran was 2 water pipes (external so not even engine related) and removed the injectors to get at a water pipe bolt. None of the fuel pumps lines ect have been swapped.

My brain is saying heat but my niggles are saying its never needed heat before. And just as i was starting to like the thing! O god give me a bolinder far easyer to work with.

1 hour ago, Boater Sam said:

From a foggy memory, isn't the governor on the National a bit of a sod to set up properly?

Paraffin is much better than acetone ( easy engine wrecker start ) especially if it is a bit warm.

Yes ive been advised not to touch this!

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I think all National D2 owners will be struggling to hand-start their engines at this time of the year without various  aids (NOT including Easyfart). Cold ,damp, oil drained from the bores, thick oil to move through the bearings etc. Electric start is one expensive solution, another is "get a Lister" . Last week in minus temperatures and engines outside in the freezing wind, I hand started an SR1 and a Petters PH2, both went first time, with no  applied heat or tricks - brilliant engines.

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16 minutes ago, billybobbooth said:

They sound boring! And noicy!

Rather than silent, like your National?

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13 minutes ago, billybobbooth said:

They sound boring! And noicy!

No, this is noisy, in a nice way:

A few more cylinders (16) to get going than a  old Nash

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Couldnt hear anything threw my speakers! I need one of them!

4 minutes ago, RLWP said:

Rather than silent, like your National?

Exhaust is noisy by engine mmmm nice and quiet

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4 minutes ago, billybobbooth said:

Exhaust is noisy by engine mmmm nice and quiet

Not today it isn't

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Ok so all has failed so far.

I took a blow touch and died out the bores i dried off the injectors, i drained off 5l of fuel from the injector pump directly, i filled the day tank with fuel and flushed it into the main tank for a bit, i took pipes off the injectors and pumped fuel threw 100ml each,

I then heated the intake pipe and still nothing no even a semi attempt.

Its smoking alot out the exhaust and smells of diesel,

Ive even got to the effort of trying both cylinders as singles and stilk not a wimper, i can only put it down to fuel but i dont see why after 4 days of not running when it ran and started fine before that,

The last wimper i got was a cough 2 days ago on 3rd or 4th attemp and nothing sence, heat has made no diffrence.

Its def not water in the cylinder.

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Going back to basics, a diesel needs ......

Fuel 

Air 

Compression

...... at the right time.

You have air. You have compression. You have fuel ...... that just leaves timing.

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9 minutes ago, billybobbooth said:

The diesel will burn ive just put a small amount in pot and it very quickly and happely burnt.

If you burn pot without the diesel you get happy very quickly. 

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34 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

Going back to basics, a diesel needs ......

Fuel 

Air 

Compression

...... at the right time.

You have air. You have compression. You have fuel ...... that just leaves timing.

I suggested earlier that the timing seemed likely to be the cause, I've had similar problems with my Jp when the pump coupling had worn. Just 2-3 degrees out made starting near impossible-further compounded by the unburnt diesel soaking the cylinder.

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Im not convinced its timing due to the one time it alsost started  and coughed normally the next attempt would start it.

It was just as if it had  ot enough fuel. I know after taking the injectors out it can be a pain to start but normally once started and then given a good run it starts properly. I just wonder if the fuel pump still isnt setup correct it shoud be.

Ive also found 1 fuel line is damaged no and need to replace this before i can try.

I do understand it could be timing ill have to find out how to check it.

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It would be usual to look at what you have changed before changing anything else

Tell us more about "i had the pump and injectors cleaned and reset"

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