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Lidle pump & fuel tank cleaning


Tony Brooks

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I thought the pump discussed in a previous thread would be ideal for sucking more crud out of my fuel tank so bought one.

It is an all metal vane type pump so hydrocarbons should not destroy it but the clearance between the rotor and body is so small it causes failure if anything other than liquid is passed through the pump unless all of any solid exits the outlet rather than being carried on round by the rotor. In my case some small bits of what I take to be welding scale and dust from the fuel tank jammed the rotor within seconds of starting.

To make matters worse it has a small in-line fuse soldered to one of the leads and covered with heat shrink sleeve inside the body. This blew instantly.

I would not even try an oil change with one of these or even transfer fuel unless I was 100% sure the fuel was free of dust, dirt and paint flakes.

 

The good thing is I got a much larger diameter length of clear plastic pipe with it than I could fit to the Pella oil drainer I had used until now. That together with some wider copper tube allowed me to easily clear the bottom of the tank by simple syphoning with none of the tube blocking the Pela suffered at joints in the tube. The image below shows what I syphoned out:

image.png.d57cecfeb2123807f210ec7b7bcc8d85.png

This is after standing for 24 hours. When first syphoned the bottle on the left was full of badly emulsified diesel.

I was horrified by this because I have been using fuel additives and sucking the bottom of the tank each spring for  three or four years. As syphoning is so easy I will now do this twice a year and advise all boaters to rig up a large bore (say 10mm) copper pipe and clear plastic tube to do the same.

I hope this helps someone avoid problems.

 

For completeness edited to add:-

The best bit is that both my agglomerator and filter were totally water and muck free with the sedimetor only having a slight smear of the emulsified diesel in the bowl.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I thought the pump discussed in a previous thread would be ideal for sucking more crud out of my fuel tank so bought one.

It is an all metal vane type pump so hydrocarbons should not destroy it but the clearance between the rotor and body is so small it causes failure if anything other than liquid is passed through the pump unless all of any solid exits the outlet rather than being carried on round by the rotor. In my case some small bits of what I take to be welding scale and dust from the fuel tank jammed the rotor within seconds of starting.

To make matters worse it has a small in-line fuse soldered to one of the leads and covered with heat shrink sleeve inside the body. This blew instantly.

I would not even try an oil change with one of these or even transfer fuel unless I was 100% sure the fuel was free of dust, dirt and paint flakes.

 

The good thing is I got a much larger diameter length of clear plastic pipe with it that I could fit to the Pella oil drainer I had used until now. That together with some wider copper tube allowed me to easily clear the bottom of the tank by simple syphoning with none of the tube blocking the Pela suffered at joints in the tube. The image below shows what I syphoned out:

image.png.d57cecfeb2123807f210ec7b7bcc8d85.png

This is after standing for 24 hours. When first syphoned the bottle on the left was full of badly emulsified diesel.

I was horrified by this because I have been using fuel additives and sucking the bottom of the tank each spring for  three or four years. As syphoning is so easy I will now do this twice a year and advise all boaters to rig up a large bore (say 10mm) copper pipe and clear plastic tube to do the same.

I hope this helps someone avoid problems.

Kinell. My tanks have never given me any problems but having seen this I am wondering if getting one of those sucking out and cleaning jobs done or is that only as good as the bod who does it anyway?

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4 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Kinell. My tanks have never given me any problems but having seen this I am wondering if getting one of those sucking out and cleaning jobs done or is that only as good as the bod who does it anyway?

Why don’t you just do what Tony did and siphon a bit from the bottom of your tank, let it settle, and then see how it looks?

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1 minute ago, WotEver said:

Why don’t you just do what Tony did and siphon a bit from the bottom of your tank, let it settle, and then see how it looks?

Good plan. will do when weather allows :cheers:

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10 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

The good thing is I got a much larger diameter length of clear plastic pipe with it that I could fit to the Pella oil drainer I had used until now. That together with some wider copper tube allowed me to easily clear the bottom of the tank by simple syphoning with none of the tube blocking the Pela suffered at joints in the tube. The image below shows what I syphoned out:

 

 

Tony, interesting post.

I was just about to have a go at sucking the bottom of our tank with a pella vacuum pump. Never tried it with a Pela before. I guess I need to avoid blockages in the tubing. Can you expand on what you are saying here?

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12 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Tony, interesting post.

I was just about to have a go at sucking the bottom of our tank with a pella vacuum pump. Never tried it with a Pela before. I guess I need to avoid blockages in the tubing. Can you expand on what you are saying here?

 

Mistake in original post - I will edit if I can.

I got a much larger diameter length of clear plastic pipe with it that I could fit to the Pella oil drainer I had used until now.

should read:

I got a much larger diameter length of clear plastic pipe with it than I could fit to the Pella oil drainer I had used until now.

So I nbo longer recommend using the Pella unless the tank is such that you can not set up a syphon.

I pulled off the Bowden outer cable and rubber sleeve thing. Fitted a length of clear plastic tube so I could see what I was sucking up plus a length of bowed copper tube. The insert tube into tank, pump the Pella and use the bow in the copper to reach all over as much of the tank bottom as you can, especially the lowest parts.

Because of the Pella plastic tube diameter and the need to provide the largest bore possible the joint between the now cloudy Pella plastic pipe and some new clear plastic pipe had to be made using a short length of copper pipe that obviously has a smaller bore than the  plastic tube. I found that this reduction in diameter caused the pipe to block with gritty black stuff from the bottom of the tank. It seems like welding scale & dust, rust plus fibres holding it in small clumps.

As long as your tank base is above the base plate then it will in my new experience be far easier to but a couple of metres of clear plastic hose that is a tight push fit over (say) 3/8 copper tube. The tube probably needs a bow in it so you can suck from a wider area of tank bottom. The just syphon it. I accept that I am used to having mouths full of petrol. diesel etc. so starting the syphon by sucking may not be to everybody's taste. However the length of plastic pipe meant I never got diesel within a foot of my mouth.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I pulled off the Bowden outer cable and rubber sleeve thing. Fitted a length of clear plastic tube so I could see what I was sucking up plus a length of bowed copper tube. The insert tube into tank, pump the Pella and use the bow in the copper to reach all over as much of the tank bottom as you can, especially the lowest parts.

Because of the Pella plastic tube diameter and the need to provide the largest bore possible the joint between the now cloudy Pella plastic pipe and some new clear plastic pipe had to be made using a short length of copper pipe that obviously has a smaller bore than the  plastic tube. I found that this reduction in diameter caused the pipe to block with gritty black stuff from the bottom of the tank. It seems like welding scale & dust, rust plus fibres holding it in small clumps.

As long as your tank base is above the base plate then it will in my new experience be far easier to but a couple of metres of clear plastic hose that is a tight push fit over (say) 3/8 copper tube. The tube probably needs a bow in it so you can suck from a wider area of tank bottom. The just syphon it. I accept that I am used to having mouths full of petrol. diesel etc. so starting the syphon by sucking may not be to everybody's taste. However the length of plastic pipe meant I never got diesel within a foot of my mouth.

Thanks Tony. Good info.

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1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

Kinell. My tanks have never given me any problems but having seen this I am wondering if getting one of those sucking out and cleaning jobs done or is that only as good as the bod who does it anyway?

As long as you have a conventional tank that has its base well above the base plate why spend over £100 when a tenner for half a metre of 3/8 or 1/2 inch copper pipe and some clear plastic pipe will set you up. You will have to save some milk cartons as well. This as a DIY job is as easy as they come.

Milk carton (top off) on base plate, copper pipe in tank sitting on the bottom, suck on plastic pipe until diesel is nearly at your mouth. Finger in mouth to seal the tube and insert tube into milk carton as you remove your finger. Move copper pipe over the bottom of the tank especially into corners at the lowest point. When its only clear diesel or the carton is nearly full lift the carton and tube to above the tank level and withdraw tube holding the open end high. Repeat as required.

One reason I was so appalled was that there has never been any signs of water or other nasties in my filters and water trap. I would advise everyone who can to do their own servicing so they can spend time draining and examining their fuel filters for water, slime, and floating particles. This is where you get early warning of potential fuel problems.

Edited to add:

This is NOT fuel polishing and should never be considered as such. It is just routine tank maintenance.

 

 

Edited by Tony Brooks
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35 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Why don’t you just do what Tony did and siphon a bit from the bottom of your tank, let it settle, and then see how it looks?

I have a slight problem with this - the bottom of my tank is 4 foot below the water-line, in the 'keel' of the boat., there is nothing in the boat lower than the tank, so its a pump or nothing for me.

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2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

suck on plastic pipe until disease is nearly at your mouth

Unintentional but humorous autocorrect there ;)

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I have a slight problem with this - the bottom of my tank is 4 foot below the water-line, in the 'keel' of the boat., there is nothing in the boat lower than the tank, so its a pump or nothing for me.

Fairy snuff. :)

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Did my tank only a few days ago before a fill using the modified pella approach and found about a egg-cup full of black slime at the bottom of the vee in my tank. It appeared oily and easy to break up so wasn't too bothered but pleased to have it out...

I had the engine stop on the tideway with the new to me barge due to bug/slime clogging the filters...my fault, enthusiasm got the better of me. Never again.

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It's several years ago now so can't recall exact details but I modified a Pella suction oil changer to accept large bore tubing, 15mm or so, that connected to a length of 15mm Polyplumb tubing to reach bottom of tank. At the top of the Polyplumb tube I fitted a full bore valve, this was closed while I got the Pella fully evacuated, when valve was opened it gave a quick lift from fuel tank rather than the slow action of a standard small bore Pella. 

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31 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Just stuck my head in the back end and both tanks have drains at the bottom so might start there?

Good idea but check where they actually drain from and how the boat trims in the water. Most NBs and I expect wide beam so called NBs have any tank drain at the front yet they trim down by the stern so the drains will leave some water/nasties in the tank. Also because the base of the tank is often the uxter plate such drains have to be fitted a little above the bottom of the tank leaving more space for water/muck that can't be drained. This is probably not a problem while the tank is more or less bug free but I would rather have it out.

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15 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Probably more difficult than a simple syphon unless you have help. You would need one hand for the pump, one to keep the empty container upright with the hose still in place and one to move the copper pipe over the bottom of the tank. Maybe it would be OK as long as you can drop the pump once the syphon starts but then you end up with a pump full of  diesel when done. I suspect it is easier to get a  diesel spill into the bilge with one of these but its the individual's choice.

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

The best bit is that both my agglomerator and filter were totally water and muck free with the sedimetor only having a slight smear of the emulsified diesel in the bowl.

But might not have stayed that way if you had gone out onto lumpy water.

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Just now, David Mack said:

But might not have stayed that way if you had gone out onto lumpy water.

I agree, there is a half plane for a tideway trip in the summer so that is why I wanted something better than the Pella pump. It will get another syphoning before if the trip takes place.

I suspect the tank was like this when we did the tidal Trent and that got a bit lump as did the Severn in 2016 but the water trap and filters have always been cleaner than I used to find on trucks.

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I've already posted my tale of woe with diesel but it might bear repeating, I have a large fuel tank amidships with awkward access, the tank has a disc cut out of it to take various pipes, its about 6" dia but I cut it by drilling a ring of holes, to put your arm inside is like tickling the tonsils of a crocodile. When the engine stopped a couple of years ago I did the filter and watertrap to no avail, the fuel smelt wrong so eventually undid the ring of bolts and looked into the tank. Horrible orange mess, suspect the deck filler had leaked but the only way to clean it was to buy two plastic barrels, put a bilge pump in the tank and empty the lot. The mess that was left had to be cleaned with rags and nappies (careful with those, they disintegrate and the gel comes out), it took days to do it properly, my arm was shredded from the inspection hole and the far corners of the tank took ages to clean with rags and sponges on sticks. Having done all that I am absolutely sure that sucking the bottom layer out would simply not have worked, the slimy mess all over the bottom would have not been touched. The 'fuel' that came out was all scrap. If I had another boat I would specify a proper inspection plate be fitted. I now remove the plate every year and check it. I would recommend poking a little camera into the tank if you can't get decent access especially if you venture onto rivers. Water in fuel is a real sod.

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14 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Our diesel tank has a huge inspection hatch on it, but i've never been brave enough to remove it and have a look below incase I see the riverbed.

In my teens I was wondering how much petrol was left in the tank of my Bantam. I took the filler cap off and sloshed it from side to side and it didn’t sound like much but it was dark and I couldn’t really see into the tank. I took my lighter from my pocket and was just about to light it when Darwin saved me :D

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3 minutes ago, WotEver said:

In my teens I was wondering how much petrol was left in the tank of my Bantam. I took the filler cap off and sloshed it from side to side and it didn’t sound like much but it was dark and I couldn’t really see into the tank. I took my lighter from my pocket and was just about to light it when Darwin saved me :D

That'll teach you to put petrol in a chicken!

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