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Value of 2LW + PRM


davidb

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Hi, I have always fancied a boat with a Gardner in it, and at last there is a chance of one. In order to justify the extra cost of one in a boat to my financial advisor ( Wife ), please could someone give me a clue to what a 2LW in good order with a PRM , also in good order could be valued at? thanks, David

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How do you know it is in good order? Steamraiser2 here says they can still run well whilst carrying all manner of expensive wear snd tear once stripped down, IIRC.

But as a starting estimate if being sold by someone I know and trust telling me it is in good order, I'd say £10k seems like a nice realistic and round figure.  

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Thanks, Mike, I have had a good look at it, heard it running for while, and I do trust the seller. 10k is the figure I had guessed, but we had heard since that they could sell for £20k, which surprised me. cheers, David

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And if you sell your Gardner for £10K you'll need a replacement engine - say £5K - and someone to modify the boat to take it - say £2K

Can't see this argument is going to convince your wife 'Darling we can always sell the engine and devalue the boat'

Richard

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10 minutes ago, davidb said:

Yes, quite, but what I really mean is: " is a boat with an engine room with a 2LW in it generally worth at least 10k more than a standard modern engined boat?"

My answer to that would be "no, I can't see that it would be".

As RLWP suggests, any boat of similar quality not having one will still require a good reliable engine that makes up quite a bit of the overall value of the boat - let's go with his £5K figure, which could be conservative.  I can't see a typical Gardner, (probably of at least partly unknown provenance), being worth £15K.

However looking at it another way.  If you mean a traditional style engine room, in the traditional location, but in a modern boat, not many people bother with that and then put anything other than an old engine in it, (unless it's something like a BD3 or JD3, which in my view are fairly unlovely).  So I suggest you are anyway looking at a quite different marketplace from a boat not having a "traditional" engine room, and an old engine.  You are comparing apples and pears really.

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7 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

However looking at it another way.  If you mean a traditional style engine room, in the traditional location, but in a modern boat, not many people bother with that and then put anything other than an old engine in it, (unless it's something like a BD3 or JD3, which in my view are fairly unlovely).

 

Funny you should say that. I purchased one of my boats with a BD3 in a separate engine room. Very nice boat in so many ways except for a naff engine. I'd have happily paid £10k more for the boat had it had a 2LW in it. 

As it happened I removed the BD3 and installed the K1 instead, the whole project turning out to have cost approx £10k once the BD3 was sold. 

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45 minutes ago, davidb said:

Yes, quite, but what I really mean is: " is a boat with an engine room with a 2LW in it generally worth at least 10k more than a standard modern engined boat?"

Is a boat with a 2LW in an engine room worth £10K more than - what? A cruiser stern, a semi-trad. These are sensible places for a modern engine, so you get more cabin space - must be worth something more than several feet of dead space. Unless that modern engined boat is in poor state or old, then it may be worth less. Unless the 2LW is in a poor boat then the modern engined boat could be a whole lot more

Never mind apples and pears, you are trying to compare apples with 'what's in this bag then?'

Do you like the boat, does your wife like the boat? Do you like it enough to want to stretch yourself to buy it? - these are better questions, and only you can answer them

Richard

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Having just gone through this thought process with our latest purchase - if you like the boat and it is designed to take a proper engine the IMHO a 2LW is worth a premium over many alternatives out there - our decision was based on 2cyl being preferable, spares availability, support and cost - IMHO on that basis the only viable futureproof 2 cyls are 2LW and DM2 as Listers do seem to be harder to get bits for and take longer to get serious work done and the JP2 whilst it is a lovely engine is physically quite big.

Many other options exist with their respective fan base - this was just our conclusion and reflects what we did. 

Reflecting Mikes point I agree if you can find a nice boat with a JD3 in it and make the swap that will work financially and on resale and there are a couple out there now 

Not sure what boat you are after but have you seen Batavia at Braunston IMHO that with a 2LW in it would be a great boat.

We definitely gave a lot of thought as to what engines are going to be well supported in 5 years time as this aspect of our hobby is changing quite rapidly.

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1 hour ago, Halsey said:

ot sure what boat you are after but have you seen Batavia at Braunston IMHO that with a 2LW in it would be a great boat.

 

Its a VERY stylish boat seen in the flesh. But it has no proper back cabin and is only 46ft and very poorly laid out inside. All in my personal opinion. 

Bolinder 1052 in a nice engine room. 

http://www.braunstonmarina.co.uk/Boat-Details/batavia

 

1.jpg

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Vintage engines for narrowboats are subject to market forces and fashion the same as any other commodity. The engines that are generally "on trend" most of the time are Gardner 2LWs closely followed by the Gardner 3LW. We sell more 3LWs than 2s partly because there are a few more 3s than 2s ( not that there are many of either now) but there is little cost difference in the buy in cost of stock engines or the retail value of a restored item. You pays your money and makes your choice. Due to the exhaustion of stocks of engines for restoration ( we have pretty much cleared South Africa, Australia and Hong Kong and I'm getting too old for sneaking onto to unattended sampans with a bag of spanners :mellow:)

The other engine type that consistently features is the Lister JP2 and variants of. These are of similar value to the Gardner engines but tend to be the second choice vintage engine. An engine snobbery thing?

Both marques are great engines with pretty good spares availability for both types. After market parts supply for JP type Listers is well established and we can supply virtually everything for them. Not everything is available off the shelf overnight but parts supply is generally pretty good if you know where to go. Beware of poor quality knock off parts though, there is a lot of them out there. Gardners have been fortunate in that the bus trade made spare parts commonplace. As that has pretty much stopped the available parts are showing signs of drying up. We are investing heavily in some of the harder to find stuff and expect that to be a larger part of the business in future years.

So in essence I don't think that either the Gardners LWs or Lister JP/JS/JKs will fade away and will continue to be sought after for many years yet. Adding value to your boat? Maybe a little but no where near what people think.  Market forces will continue to dictate that a properly restored JP2 , depending on the spec, will be in the region of £12-14k ex works while a 2LW will currently set you back £14 -18k. The £25k 2LW is not that far away believe me. Demand and the rising price of core engines are the drivers for this.

Kelvins and the like are pretty stable in value as they are a niche thing and not everyone wants one. If you covet one you will pay a price, if you don't you won't.

A lot of our business is with the Netherlands. Their sought after engines are the Kromhout built Gardners and the LS / GS / TS variants. The Lister JP/JK/JS variants but generally the 3 cylinder ones and the Samofa twins. They have no interest at all in Gardner 2LWs. When it comes to vintage engines in boats the Dutch are the boys. Large numbers of boats have vintage engines compared to the UK . Long may it continue!

Taking MtB's point  it is a simple fact that there are a lot of  "restored" , "good condition", and "well maintained" second hand engines out there. If you don't know the engine in question well don't pay a premium for it  and keep your expectations low. We currently have an engine in the workshops sent in by an experienced boater who bought a "reconditioned" engine on the open market. On checking it over we have found, so far, two odd and mis-machined pistons, the big ends worn so badly that they are running on the backers, odd con rods, fuel gear fuel of rusty water, and the wrong pinion on the starter motor, but my did it look pretty!

You have a vintage engine because you want one, it's a man cave thing. It won't add value unless the prospective buyer of your boat is in the man cave market too.

Five years from now... Still Gardners and Lister JPs..... new kids on the block? Samofa 2S-108s, why... they have lots of Gardner parts inside

 

 

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5 minutes ago, steamraiser2 said:

Five years from now... Still Gardners and Lister JPs..... new kids on the block? Samofa 2S-108s, why... they have lots of Gardner parts inside

 

 

I have a spare Samofa 2S-108 lying around in my Garden(er)  :giggles:

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19 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Its a VERY stylish boat seen in the flesh. But it has no proper back cabin and is only 46ft and very poorly laid out inside. All in my personal opinion. 

Bolinder 1052 in a nice engine room. 

http://www.braunstonmarina.co.uk/Boat-Details/batavia

 

 

Thanks for (most of) your comments!

Batavia doesn't have a back cabin because there is insufficient height between the swim and the gunnel to fit in a cross bed - and we didn't like the layout  where the bed goes lengthways (e.g. on Pacific).

As for the rest of the layout- a matter of choice!  It worked for us...

The side fenders were initially chosen to stop the gunnel disappearing underneath the lock landings on the Thames, but proved to be very useful elsewhere.

Chris G

 

PS  It also comes with about 3 tonnes of 1052 spare engines and gearboxes!

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24 minutes ago, steamraiser2 said:

Vintage engines for narrowboats are subject to market forces and fashion the same as any other commodity. The engines that are generally "on trend" most of the time are Gardner 2LWs closely followed by the Gardner 3LW. We sell more 3LWs than 2s partly because there are a few more 3s than 2s ( not that there are many of either now) but there is little cost difference in the buy in cost of stock engines or the retail value of a restored item. You pays your money and makes your choice. Due to the exhaustion of stocks of engines for restoration ( we have pretty much cleared South Africa, Australia and Hong Kong and I'm getting too old for sneaking onto to unattended sampans with a bag of spanners :mellow:)

The other engine type that consistently features is the Lister JP2 and variants of. These are of similar value to the Gardner engines but tend to be the second choice vintage engine. An engine snobbery thing?

Both marques are great engines with pretty good spares availability for both types. After market parts supply for JP type Listers is well established and we can supply virtually everything for them. Not everything is available off the shelf overnight but parts supply is generally pretty good if you know where to go. Beware of poor quality knock off parts though, there is a lot of them out there. Gardners have been fortunate in that the bus trade made spare parts commonplace. As that has pretty much stopped the available parts are showing signs of drying up. We are investing heavily in some of the harder to find stuff and expect that to be a larger part of the business in future years.

So in essence I don't think that either the Gardners LWs or Lister JP/JS/JKs will fade away and will continue to be sought after for many years yet. Adding value to your boat? Maybe a little but no where near what people think.  Market forces will continue to dictate that a properly restored JP2 , depending on the spec, will be in the region of £12-14k ex works while a 2LW will currently set you back £14 -18k. The £25k 2LW is not that far away believe me. Demand and the rising price of core engines are the drivers for this.

Kelvins and the like are pretty stable in value as they are a niche thing and not everyone wants one. If you covet one you will pay a price, if you don't you won't.

A lot of our business is with the Netherlands. Their sought after engines are the Kromhout built Gardners and the LS / GS / TS variants. The Lister JP/JK/JS variants but generally the 3 cylinder ones and the Samofa twins. They have no interest at all in Gardner 2LWs. When it comes to vintage engines in boats the Dutch are the boys. Large numbers of boats have vintage engines compared to the UK . Long may it continue!

Taking MtB's point  it is a simple fact that there are a lot of  "restored" , "good condition", and "well maintained" second hand engines out there. If you don't know the engine in question well don't pay a premium for it  and keep your expectations low. We currently have an engine in the workshops sent in by an experienced boater who bought a "reconditioned" engine on the open market. On checking it over we have found, so far, two odd and mis-machined pistons, the big ends worn so badly that they are running on the backers, odd con rods, fuel gear fuel of rusty water, and the wrong pinion on the starter motor, but my did it look pretty!

You have a vintage engine because you want one, it's a man cave thing. It won't add value unless the prospective buyer of your boat is in the man cave market too.

Five years from now... Still Gardners and Lister JPs..... new kids on the block? Samofa 2S-108s, why... they have lots of Gardner parts inside

 

 

And OP - that's an opinion from someone who really knows the answer to your question - very through.

2 minutes ago, Batavia said:

 

The side fenders were initially chosen to stop the gunnel disappearing underneath the lock landings on the Thames, but proved to be very useful elsewhere.

Chris G

 

 

I agree - removable side fenders on Persia were essential on Nene and Thames - all publicity is good publicity - she is a gorgeous boat

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Thank you all for your replies, and for the huge amount of info from steamraiser, all very encouraging, and yes, we both like the boat a lot never mind the engine. Will let you know how it goes soon.

Batavia does look great, and I bet it is a pleasure to cruise, but too small for our family, I'm afraid. I'm sure it will sell soon.  cheers, David

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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I have a spare Samofa 2S-108 lying around in my Garden(er)  :giggles:

I am baffled. I put Samofa 25-108 into my search engine to have a look, and got pointers to web sites about global food distribution, American laws on Aids, but nothing about interesting diesel engines.

However, a broader search did reveal one at Marine Power Services (who I think have a presence on here). Are they British? (Samofas I mean not M.P.S.)

Edited by Athy
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32 minutes ago, davidb said:

Thank you all for your replies, and for the huge amount of info from steamraiser, all very encouraging, and yes, we both like the boat a lot never mind the engine. Will let you know how it goes soon.

If you start from 'who needs a boat', this whole thing gets a lot easier. We have a boat, we don't need a boat - it's crazy to own an expensive tin box and leave it outside floating in water. We love her

Boats are as much an emotional thing as anything else, so liking a particular boat is a much better guide than logic is

Sounds like a boat has got itself set on being owned by you, good luck and enjoy the madness. We do

Richard

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Samofas are Dutch and very proud of them they are too. The company was a joint project thing from several manufacturers set up after WW2 to fill a gap in the war torn domestic market. They poached the best ideas of what they were familiar with; Gardner, Lister , MWM , Deutz etc and came up with a simple but robust range of single cylinder and twin cylinder engines. They were used a lot on drainage pumps and soon evolved into marine diesels. Not only did they copy British and German ideas but bought in components and fitted them. Eventually they were taken over by Mitsubushi and closed down. Still quite a few around in Holland and Belgium. Very heavy and pretty bombproof. Out lasted generally by the Lister JPs they were meant to replace but held with great affection over there. Marmite engines though. You either love them or hate them. A clapped out one is a thing of pity for sure.

Edited by steamraiser2
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