Middlewich Branch breach - Shropshire Union

[Graham_Robinson]

 

There's 12 hours of daylight @ this time of the year...........how much more do you want?

Edited March 25, 2018 by Graham_Robinson

[rgreg]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

The past 2 years I have done  3 and a quarter  lock miles per hour  

Boy Racer 

[kawaton]

2 hours ago, archie57 said:

I would think that "Rings" are increasingly difficult to navigate in a week due to the ever-increasing number of linear moored boats, past which we are expected to slow down.......

You'd think so but i did the four counties early August last year and it was the quitest i have known it.

[Captain Pegg]

2 hours ago, Peter X said:

Locks and miles per hour each depend on circumstances, and I suggest the following slightly more complex formula per hour:

3 miles, but 2 if on a canal with lots of moored boats, 5 miles if going down a river.

Or 5 locks with competent crew, or 3 locks if single handed.

A crew that can do 5 locks per hour may be competent, but they would also be incredibly slow.

[rgreg]

29 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

A crew that can do 5 locks per hour may be competent, but they would also be incredibly slow.

Not if they're broad locks; these can easily take 12 minutes to turn around.

[MtB]

I'd love to see five locks an hour being done on the K&A.

[TheBiscuits]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I'd love to see five locks an hour being done on the K&A.

It would take some doing on the Trent or the Aire & Calder too!

[nb Innisfree]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I'd love to see five locks an hour being done on the K&A.

Did Caine Hill 16 in under two hours, not quite the same though. 

[Captain Pegg]

11 hours ago, rgreg said:

Not if they're broad locks; these can easily take 12 minutes to turn around.

That may be so but Peter's competent crew would be turning all the others in a flight by working ahead. He is presenting an average for planning purposes and I think as an overall representation of the network he is well out. Some river locks may take 20+ minutes but they are relatively small in number compared to narrow locks in flights where 4 minutes per lock is the other end of the scale.

Something that gets overlooked is the distance travelled while traversing a flight of locks. For instance it would take about 40 minutes to cruise the length of the Tardebigge flight just based on the distance and yet the flight of 30 locks can comfortably be done in less than 3 hours by a competent crew. Therefore what appears to be 5 minutes per lock is closer to 4 minutes in true planning terms. Canal Planner suggests something like 6 hours for Tardebigge. 

It probably illustrates that planning rules aren't particularly good for individual trips.

JP

Edited March 26, 2018 by Captain Pegg

[Grassman]

20 hours ago, Dyertribe said:

Why is it any of your business how people enjoy their holiday?

If hirers want to use their boat as much as possible why should anyone stop them?

You enjoy the canals in your way, let them (us) enjoy them in their (our) way. 

You are correct of course ^^^^. But what concerns me about hireboat companies encouraging those ambitious timescales is that hirers may be in such a hurry that they don't slow down past moored boats and worse still in their haste their speed causes excessive wash which damages the canal banks. I'm not saying all of them, but I bet a fair few do. 

Regarding the other comment about when planning, calculating an average lock mile speed of 2.5 mph I do the same but any stretch which includes flights of narrow locks which are close together, I work to an average LPM of 2.75mph.

I find I achieve these fairly comfortably and they give me a little leeway in case of delays.

[kawaton]

1 hour ago, Grassman said:

But what concerns me about hireboat companies encouraging those ambitious timescales is that hirers may be in such a hurry that they don't slow down past moored boats and worse still in their haste their speed causes excessive wash which damages the canal banks. I'm not saying all of them, but I bet a fair few do. 

I daresay this is a myth.  As I have mentioned I have no experience of hire companies encouraging anything other than short trips. 

Can anyone who has hired say that they have been encouraged to do more?  Be interested to hear.

 

Boats not slowing down is a problem, and is annoying as hell I agree.

Some people will never slow down because they are ignorant, others go to fast because of lack of experience, and in my case on the odd occasion I have been day-dreaming.

 

[ditchcrawler]

When I first hired I got shouted at for not slowing down, I had knocked the revs back by about half so to me it sounded and felt like I had slowed down enough but the true effect on my speed was probably nowt. Like wise I helped with locks and wassed the paddles up.You don't learn everything in a day.

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

Like wise I helped with locks and wassed the paddles up.

Isn't that how you do it?  All the ex-working boatmen I know don't do one click - wait five minutes - another click - another wait.

I was taught that if the boat isn't moving either horizontally or vertically you are wasting time that could be spent getting another load!

[haggis]

9 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Isn't that how you do it?  All the ex-working boatmen I know don't do one click - wait five minutes - another click - another wait.

I was taught that if the boat isn't moving either horizontally or vertically you are wasting time that could be spent getting another load!

Yes, that is how you do it IF the steerer on the boat in the lock has given the OK. I know what Brian means as I am still embarrassed about helping at a lock in my early days of boating and whapping the paddles right up before the skipper was ready. The result was a boat banging from side to side in a broad lock . I learned my lesson and have never done it since :-) . Mind you, it can be tricky getting the skippers attention to ask if he is ready for the paddles to go up but I just wait till he happens to look in my direction. 

[Tom and Bex]

2 hours ago, Grassman said:

But what concerns me about hireboat companies encouraging those ambitious timescales is that hirers may be in such a hurry that they don't slow down past moored boats and worse still in their haste their speed causes excessive wash which damages the canal banks.

We probably had about a dozen boats pass us yesterday, including about 4 hire boats. Of those, the only ones who made any effort to slow down appreciably were the hire boats. The wash on some of the private boats was almost breaking over the bank before they reached us, all the hire boats were doing a sensible speed. I generally find this is repeated throughout the year.

Obviously there are exceptions to this, but generally speaking I find the hire boats slow down far more than private boats do, yet hire boats seem to get most of the blame. As I've mentioned before though, speeding boats don't generally bother me, even when painting. With a correctly moored boat, I find we barely move regardless of speed other boats pass us. 

[TheBiscuits]

5 minutes ago, Tom and Bex said:

We probably had about a dozen boats pass us yesterday, including about 4 hire boats. Of those, the only ones who made any effort to slow down appreciably were the hire boats. The wash on some of the private boats was almost breaking over the bank before they reached us, all the hire boats were doing a sensible speed. I generally find this is repeated throughout the year.

Obviously there are exceptions to this, but generally speaking I find the hire boats slow down far more than private boats do, yet hire boats seem to get most of the blame. As I've mentioned before though, speeding boats don't generally bother me, even when painting. With a correctly moored boat, I find we barely move regardless of speed other boats pass us. 

Many grumpy boaters ignore the fact that hirers should have just had either an introduction or a quick refresher course in what is expected of them, and most of them tend to follow it.  They are out to enjoy a boating holiday, and usually are not trying to wind up other boaters.

Day boats on the other hand can be a nightmare!

With regards to correctly moored boats, I agree.  I would be in favour of dropping the please slow down past moored boats guidance generally.

I am always amused by the "Please Slow Down - 4 mph" signs I see on shallow canals where you struggle to get 2.5 mph without ploughing.

 

[Tom and Bex]

Fully agree with you on day boats. They've gone from the stretch now though!

[kawaton]

Last year we moored just before a lock and set off to do the lock in the morning.

As we were IN the lock....a passer by walked past.  The "lady" shouted at me as she went by....."Oi, make sure you slow down as you go past my boat"

Would she have don't that to a private boater? Doubt it.

Shortly after we had stopped for water. As we were filling up the "lady" boater went past in her boat creating a wash larger than the Boxing day Tsunami.

[Captain Pegg]

1 hour ago, kawaton said:

I daresay this is a myth.  As I have mentioned I have no experience of hire companies encouraging anything other than short trips. 

Can anyone who has hired say that they have been encouraged to do more?  Be interested to hear.

 

Boats not slowing down is a problem, and is annoying as hell I agree.

Some people will never slow down because they are ignorant, others go to fast because of lack of experience, and in my case on the odd occasion I have been day-dreaming.

 

Fully agree. I always did much more that the standard hire itineraries contained in brochures and on board literature.

it doesn't come from speeding either, it's about keeping on and being prepared to cruise early and/or late in the day; which are invariably the best times of the day to cruise in any case.

I can only recall being told to slow down once in years and that was by a couple sat in their saloon drinking wine at midday while moored on the outside of a bend near a bridge. I think they were alarmed by how close I was to them but they couldn't see the 60' boat on the inside of the bend going the other way. I remember it because it was an exception and it really annoyed me because I had slowed down but not as much as usual given the circumstances they had created. I would wager a decent bet that they wouldn't have said a word if the same had happened with my own boat.

JP

[ditchcrawler]

6 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Isn't that how you do it?  All the ex-working boatmen I know don't do one click - wait five minutes - another click - another wait.

I was taught that if the boat isn't moving either horizontally or vertically you are wasting time that could be spent getting another load!

Its the way I do it with my boat, Bow to the gate and get them up. something else to upset some of the volunteers 

[Dyertribe]

9 hours ago, Grassman said:

You are correct of course ^^^^. But what concerns me about hireboat companies encouraging those ambitious timescales is that hirers may be in such a hurry that they don't slow down past moored boats and worse still in their haste their speed causes excessive wash which damages the canal banks. I'm not saying all of them, but I bet a fair few do. 

Regarding the other comment about when planning, calculating an average lock mile speed of 2.5 mph I do the same but any stretch which includes flights of narrow locks which are close together, I work to an average LPM of 2.75mph.

I find I achieve these fairly comfortably and they give me a little leeway in case of delays.

As a serial hirer I have never been encouraged to attempt an ambitious route, most companies barely bother to ask where you are going other than to ascertain which way the boat needs to be pointing.

I wonder where you get the idea that these companies do that? After all the worst thing that can happen to a hire company is that th hirers fail to make it back to base on time. 

[rgreg]

13 minutes ago, Dyertribe said:

As a serial hirer I have never been encouraged to attempt an ambitious route, most companies barely bother to ask where you are going other than to ascertain which way the boat needs to be pointing.

I wonder where you get the idea that these companies do that? After all the worst thing that can happen to a hire company is that th hirers fail to make it back to base on time. 

I have to agree; when I used to hire regularly I can't remember ever being asked where I was going either.  

[David Mack]

24 minutes ago, Dyertribe said:

As a serial hirer I have never been encouraged to attempt an ambitious route, most companies barely bother to ask where you are going other than to ascertain which way the boat needs to be pointing.

I wonder where you get the idea that these companies do that? After all the worst thing that can happen to a hire company is that th hirers fail to make it back to base on time. 

Last time I looked the brochures and websites tended to recommend rings over out-and-back trips.

And a boat that fails to make it back to base on time (i.e more than an hour or so late) is a boat which is not available for the following hirer, so surely it is quite a problem for the hire company, especially at the times of year when the fleet is fully booked.

[BruceinSanity]

9 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Last time I looked the brochures and websites tended to recommend rings over out-and-back trips.

And a boat that fails to make it back to base on time (i.e more than an hour or so late) is a boat which is not available for the following hirer, so surely it is quite a problem for the hire company, especially at the times of year when the fleet is fully booked.

The hire companies used to push rings in their ads in the magazines and we've certainly spoken to hirers down the years who had felt that a ring was the thing to do. But a bit of research on the websites of the main hirer companies today showed a much more balanced attitude in the matter of route choice.

When we hired from Kate Boats in the eighties, they always asked us about our plans. Don't know what they are like now, but Eric Simmonds took a lot of care of his customers, unusually so, like encouraging you to keep a log of your trip on provided stationery and posting a copy of it to you after the trip.

[Rob-M]

26 minutes ago, rgreg said:

I have to agree; when I used to hire regularly I can't remember ever being asked where I was going either.  

Same with us, when we hired I think the only thing we were asked was which way did we want to head off. We often boated 14 hour days when hiring because we had hired a boat to go boating, if we had wanted to sit around we would have hired a caravan.