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Middlewich Branch breach - Shropshire Union


lostnortherner

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17 minutes ago, Heartland said:

Meanwhile the canal will be out of use. And at what cost to the CRT?

 

The CRT bod in the video said the cost will run into £millions. 

Dave-Shrop keeps offering to do it with his JCB. Somehow I'm not convinced. 

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25 minutes ago, Heartland said:

Meanwhile the canal will be out of use. And at what cost to the CRT?

The cost of the canal being out of use will be negligible to C&RT - (the cost of fixing it (apparently) runs into 'millions')

Folks are not going to cash in their licences, sell the boats, ask for financial recompense (you have agreed to that by buying a licence) just because they cannot use that bit of the network.

9. Our obligations
9.1 We will do our best to keep the Waterway open for navigation, but closures may be required as a result of occasional unforeseen events or essential maintenance and repair work. Except in emergencies or for other unavoidable reasons, we shall try to arrange our maintenance work to cause you the least disruption. This means that most work requiring closures will be done between the beginning of November and the end of March. There may be other occasions when, due to causes beyond our reasonable control, we have to close part or (exceptionally) all of the Waterway.
9.2 The Licence fees are calculated on the assumption that you will be affected by closures from time to time and accordingly refunds of Licence fees will not be made for closures as described in this Condition 9.
9.3 We exclude any liability for any damages arising from the closure of the Waterway (save for any damages arising from personal injury or death caused by our negligence).

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From what I have heard from CaRT, their first step is to try and understand, from forensic evidence, what led to the collapse in the first place. This will tell a lot about what might need to be done in a repair. It is possible, for example, that the soil conditions others have described (I know nothing to add to that) are such that a simple 're-build' is either not possible or not sensible, especially of the assessment is that a further slip is to be expected. It may well be that an on-site examination shows that further stretches are equally unstable and strengthening one part only transfers loads onto those weaker parts. 

We cannot compare construction timescales 200 years ago with today. On the one hand we now have much better equipment than shovels and barrows operated by barely-paid navvies who were little better than slaves. On the other hand, the regulatory context is rightly much stricter and requires considerably more supporting evidence and calculation.

There are lots of people here with all sorts of experience and knowledge but I somehow suspect that even adding it all together we would not be a match for the expertise in CaRT. My strong impression has long been that there is only thing between CaRT and a first class canal system - money! And given the reaction here to fund raising appeals, even the opportunistic ones, suggests that we are unlikely to solve that particular problem overnight - or even in 6 weeks.

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4 minutes ago, archie57 said:

The difference being that it was still a commercial waterway so it had an economic impact, not least on BW themselves as the carrying company. The current breach will ultimate have bugger all impact on the UK economy and CRT is an agency of the Government. Mobilising contractors to do emergency repairs to what by necessity would be an over engineered design carries a cost premium. CRT will respond in a controlled manner - a manner that in reality will seem slow - because they will be seeking to minimise costs. It isn't in their interests to hurry.

JP

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3 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

There are lots of people here with all sorts of experience and knowledge but I somehow suspect that even adding it all together we would not be a match for the expertise in CaRT.

I have done a couple of weekend hires with a group of my friends and colleagues who are geotechnical engineers. I would reckon we had expertise to match what CRT can offer on those boats. We all had experience of rebuilding failed earthworks in a hurry too.

JP

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2 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

I have done a couple of weekend hires with a group of my friends and colleagues who are geotechnical engineers. I would reckon we had expertise to match what CRT can offer on those boats. We all had experience of rebuilding failed earthworks in a hurry too.

JP

I would suggest that C&RT have little expertise in many areas and rely on 'lowest bid' contractors to do the work that was once done by C&RT (BW) employees who had the skills.

Having sold off all of their working tools, even if they had the competence they do not have the equipment.

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4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I would suggest that C&RT have little expertise in many areas and rely on 'lowest bid' contractors to do the work that was once done by C&RT (BW) employees who had the skills.

Having sold off all of their working tools, even if they had the competence they do not have the equipment.

I doubt any comparable organisation retains such capability; it's probably doubtful that they ever had it. This is specialist muck shifting in large quantities. It's a rare event that sort of capability is needed so why would any competent organisation want to have such a capability in-house?

What I am sure CRT does have is some perfectly competent geotechnical engineers. One of my aforementioned friends did actually work for BWB as a young engineer.

JP

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33 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

I have done a couple of weekend hires with a group of my friends and colleagues who are geotechnical engineers. I would reckon we had expertise to match what CRT can offer on those boats. We all had experience of rebuilding failed earthworks in a hurry too.

JP

The "Orange Army" might cope, but they still the technical bods to sort out the details, and design it not to happen again.
I give you Dawlish as an example.

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7 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

The "Orange Army" might cope, but they still the technical bods to sort out the details, and design it not to happen again.
I give you Dawlish as an example.

Diversity and inclusion policies prevent the appointment of Protestant only contractors.

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2 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

The difference being that it was still a commercial waterway so it had an economic impact, not least on BW themselves as the carrying company. The current breach will ultimate have bugger all impact on the UK economy and CRT is an agency of the Government. JP

Try telling that to the hire companies in that part of the system, both Cheshire Ring and 4 counties broken with several bases now unable to reach the Llangollen in a week, they will find it a hard sell to keep their boats full. Many of these companies are on a knife edge anyway, and without their lobby with CRT, we have no chance of any navigable system in the future, basically the hobby boater doesn't count. 

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8 minutes ago, Detling said:

Try telling that to the hire companies in that part of the system, both Cheshire Ring and 4 counties broken with several bases now unable to reach the Llangollen in a week, they will find it a hard sell to keep their boats full. Many of these companies are on a knife edge anyway, and without their lobby with CRT, we have no chance of any navigable system in the future, basically the hobby boater doesn't count. 

Uk economy wise the hobby boater doesn’t count. Peanuts ain’t it ! 

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Why not get the army in to fix it? The CRT are not profit making. It would be for the good of the country. Com'on Mrs May, set the lads on to it. They would probably enjoy it and good practice for invasions jobs planned in the future ( take over of the Russian canal network). 

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19 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Why not get the army in to fix it? The CRT are not profit making. It would be for the good of the country. Com'on Mrs May, set the lads on to it. They would probably enjoy it and good practice for invasions jobs planned in the future ( take over of the Russian canal network). 

Because the Army now charge commercial rates if they are called in, as was discovered during the recent snow by a couple of County Councils.

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1 hour ago, Detling said:

Try telling that to the hire companies in that part of the system, both Cheshire Ring and 4 counties broken with several bases now unable to reach the Llangollen in a week, they will find it a hard sell to keep their boats full. Many of these companies are on a knife edge anyway, and without their lobby with CRT, we have no chance of any navigable system in the future, basically the hobby boater doesn't count. 

Canals have been subsidised since they were nationalised and thankfully they have been allowed to go from a role of supporting our manufacturing industry to an essentially leisure based activity while retaining a subsidy. The lack of hard commercial thinking is the only thing that has allowed them to remain open. Better left that way rather than demanding too much in the way of levels of service. That can only end very badly for all boaters. Collectively we couldn't afford to foot the full bill for what we benefit from. Nonetheless it is very unfortunate for the local hire companies.

As a hobby boater who was planning a trip via the Middlewich branch this summer and will have to change plans I accept that I don't really count in the wider scheme of things.

JP 

Edited by Captain Pegg
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When Alvechurch were impacted by the collapse of Wast Hill tunnel they moved the hire boats to Earlswood so they could still access the main network. Anyone wanting to do the Avon Ring or Stourport Ring did an out and back instead.

The Cheshire Ring isn't broken by this breach but anyone wanting to join the ring from the Nantwich side will not be able to without going via Great Haywood so hire operators on that side will need to suggest routes up and down the Shroppie.

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4 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

When Alvechurch were impacted by the collapse of Wast Hill tunnel they moved the hire boats to Earlswood so they could still access the main network. Anyone wanting to do the Avon Ring or Stourport Ring did an out and back instead.

The Cheshire Ring isn't broken by this breach but anyone wanting to join the ring from the Nantwich side will not be able to without going via Great Haywood so hire operators on that side will need to suggest routes up and down the Shroppie.

I guess there is the option for the hire companies in Middlewich to locate some boats the other side of the breach for people wanting to go to Llangollen.

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9 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

When Alvechurch were impacted by the collapse of Wast Hill tunnel they moved the hire boats to Earlswood so they could still access the main network. Anyone wanting to do the Avon Ring or Stourport Ring did an out and back instead.

The Cheshire Ring isn't broken by this breach but anyone wanting to join the ring from the Nantwich side will not be able to without going via Great Haywood so hire operators on that side will need to suggest routes up and down the Shroppie.

Whilst not welcoming the breach, anything that reduces the hirers and hire companies obsession with "rings" is good. It only encourages the hirer to thrash on round to "do the Four Counties in a week". Hopefully many of them will discover the joys of an out and back cruise this year with all its advantages, like knowing where the good pubs and moorings are.

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39 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

When Alvechurch were impacted by the collapse of Wast Hill tunnel they moved the hire boats to Earlswood so they could still access the main network. Anyone wanting to do the Avon Ring or Stourport Ring did an out and back instead.

The Cheshire Ring isn't broken by this breach but anyone wanting to join the ring from the Nantwich side will not be able to without going via Great Haywood so hire operators on that side will need to suggest routes up and down the Shroppie.

Correct the Cheshire ring is broken at Marple. but is still bust until at least May.

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1 hour ago, BruceinSanity said:

Whilst not welcoming the breach, anything that reduces the hirers and hire companies obsession with "rings" is good. It only encourages the hirer to thrash on round to "do the Four Counties in a week". Hopefully many of them will discover the joys of an out and back cruise this year with all its advantages, like knowing where the good pubs and moorings are.

I totally disagree with you. When we used to hire as a family years ago we did both "Four Counties" and "Cheshire" rings in a week along with many out and back trips. We thoroughly enjoyed both, but particularly the rings so no repeat of ground covered. Nowadays we have the time to take much longer and can easily take a month to do the same. Do I regret doing the rings in a week in the early hire days? Not at all.

Edited by rgreg
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