Jump to content

Moving on red flags


blackrose

Featured Posts

2 minutes ago, dccruiser said:

Thats the plan providing i have the boat finished in time I would love a trip up to york ... then perhaps peel off on the way back and do the L&L, Then return via the Llangollen and the shroppie :) 

Rick

 

If the river stays like this we wont be going up til August :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, BruceinSanity said:

Not so far out. The Egyptians divided the day into twelve hours of daylight and twelve of night, so that the length of an hour depended on the time of year. Twelve because your four fingers on one hand have three joints each, so counting to twelve on your fingers is easy. Do it repeatedly, raising one digit on the other hand for each repetition and you're counting to 60, the number of minutes in an hour. 

The Babylonian's counting system was to base 60 and they had a set of cuneiform symbols for the purpose.

You know those times when you wish you’d never asked a question... ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Horace42 said:

A lot of the replies here relate to the 'legal' aspect of insurance - but in practice what is the risk of 'moving on red' ?

A 'red' flag or depth marker is a warning of flooding - deeper water than normal - and fast flowing currents.

From which there is a risk of being swept away - washed up against a weir - or slammed into structures - or stranded on dry land when water levels drop.

These look like property risks - and quite expensive if help is needed to recover. Within reason, these are 'foreseeable' risks.

But much less obvious is the real risk of injury or drowning in a panic situation - falling overboard - overturning - or sinking - that can happen suddenly (lack of experience of 'man or machine' to cope in the circumstances).

So the question I ask here - has anybody been in such a situation in real life - and is here to tell the tale?

Came onto the Nene at Northampton a few years back, and although there were warnings of flooding the river was like a millpond so we carried on. A few locks down I noticed we seemed to be going faster and there were visible ripples in midstream. So when we got to a wide straight reach I put the boat into full astern. Even with the engine screaming we were still going forwards, so I headed gingerly into the next lock cut hugging the shore opposite the weirstream, and we moored up to let the waters subside. It might not have been so pleasant if I had still been in midstream and within reach of the pull of the weir.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Came onto the Nene at Northampton a few years back, and although there were warnings of flooding the river was like a millpond so we carried on. A few locks down I noticed we seemed to be going faster and there were visible ripples in midstream. So when we got to a wide straight reach I put the boat into full astern. Even with the engine screaming we were still going forwards, so I headed gingerly into the next lock cut hugging the shore opposite the weirstream, and we moored up to let the waters subside. It might not have been so pleasant if I had still been in midstream and within reach of the pull of the weir.

The Nene is first and foremost a flood relief system not a navigation 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, WotEver said:

You know those times when you wish you’d never asked a question... ;)

My family has on occasions used Gloria Swanson's criticism of Ronald Reagan about me:

"Ask him the time and he'll tell you how the watch was made."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/03/2018 at 20:27, MartinC said:

This looks like a Craftinsure policy. The relevant bit is the penultimate item under General Exceptions "Claims arising from your reckless actions...".

"reckless" disregarding the consequences or danger, lacking caution, rash (Oxford Dictionary). Roll in the legal fees!

Ok, I understand what reckless means, but I guess it would come down to an interpretation of a reckless actions on the waterways.

I've moved on red boards before on the advice of the Thames lock keepers and it was considered and careful, not reckless at all.

 

On 14/03/2018 at 23:16, stagedamager said:

We went in and out of Billing Marina on red flags. The issue being the EA see the Nene as one complete river, so what will be flooded in Peterborough will be fine in Northampton. Both ways were absolutely fine, levels and flow rates were normal. 

Yes, that was my point when I started this thread. I left Billing the other day while still on red and it was absolutely fine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 15/03/2018 at 11:32, dccruiser said:

Surely it doesnt have to state red boards as recklessness covers any action that is considered to increase any potential risk, just as car insurance policies dont say specifically you must have a valid M.O.T. and Tax, or list drink driving , speeding etc. but its the first thing they check if you have an accident.

Rick

I don't know, that's why I was asking. I'm not an insurance expert, but I'd have thought an insurance policy would have to mention something specific like "moving against the advice of the waterways authority" rather than just "reckless actions" which is somewhat open to interpretation. There are some fairly specific clauses about "acts of war"and "ionising radiation" after all!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Crt are now using coloured sleeves on the lock beams on various locks on the Kennet  . We've navigated off the Kennet every spring since 2005 .... and I must admit ' raced through' Woolhampton on more than one occasion, and gone out of Fobney with the landing stage underwater ..... but we have ignored the sleeves if we judge the water to be no worse than we have cruised on before , when we didnt know any different . We have moved on the Thames red boards twice. Once up through Osney, the water was almost off red back to decreasing, but lockie said another 24 hrs but rain was due later , so we judged the bridge height ( was plenty ) and had a good look on the sheep wash corner for moored boats , water  was a bit lumpy and heavy but ok . 2nd time Clifton / Culham , yep that was lumpy and not nice  , wont repeat that  . Raced the boards from Abingdon to Caversham, lockies puting up red as we left the locks on each occasion, only took us 6hrs ! Didnt fancy getting stuck in Reading on the Kennet , hence Caversham, we were there 10days, there was a boat in County lock in Reading on the Kennet for a week ,    Bunny . 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I don't know, that's why I was asking. I'm not an insurance expert, but I'd have thought an insurance policy would have to mention something specific like "moving against the advice of the waterways authority" rather than just "reckless actions" which is somewhat open to interpretation. There are some fairly specific clauses about "acts of war"and "ionising radiation" after all!

I think they use ambiguous terms as much as possible to allow themselves huge amounts of wriggle room in order to not pay out if at all possible?

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, mrsmelly said:

I think they use ambiguous terms as much as possible to allow themselves huge amounts of wriggle room in order to not pay out if at all possible?

I'm sure you're right, the whole subject is ambiguous. So I don't think you're necessarily technically "uninsured" if you make a considered move on red boards with the advice of lock keepers, etc. Just that in the event of a claim they may not pay out. But it amounts to the same thing of course. 

  • Happy 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I don't know, that's why I was asking. I'm not an insurance expert, but I'd have thought an insurance policy would have to mention something specific like "moving against the advice of the waterways authority" rather than just "reckless actions" which is somewhat open to interpretation. There are some fairly specific clauses about "acts of war"and "ionising radiation" after all!

This is why contracts (inc insurance policies) are so long and hence less than transparent (one loses the will to live before completing reading them!). Additional statements are included in the wake of cases which reveal that there is material ambiguity to the disadvantage of the contract writer. Too often the reaction is to add specifics rather than attempt a better over-arching definition that dels with the specific as well as other similar matters. Instead we end up with a litany of excluded or constrained items.

I think that earlier in this thread it was reported that some insurers specifically refer to red boards or to advice whilst others do not. More than likely the former are companies who have had a dispute on this matter and whether or not someone was reckless when they followed non-binding advice from a dubious 'expert' or whether they were making a considered personal judgement. There will always be the catch-all 'reckless' element in the contract but specific cases rule out the ambiguity. However, it is likely that the wording will deal with cases where a boater goes out against such advice but not where the advice is given that it is OK to ignore a red warning (especially one that is automated and 'known' to be unduly pessimistic). It will always be the boater's responsibility. The only possibility would  be to say that it was not reckless unless the policy was more specific.

54 minutes ago, Bunny said:

Crt are now using coloured sleeves on the lock beams on various locks on the Kennet  . We've navigated off the Kennet every spring since 2005 .... and I must admit ' raced through' Woolhampton on more than one occasion, and gone out of Fobney with the landing stage underwater ..... but we have ignored the sleeves if we judge the water to be no worse than we have cruised on before , when we didnt know any different . We have moved on the Thames red boards twice. Once up through Osney, the water was almost off red back to decreasing, but lockie said another 24 hrs but rain was due later , so we judged the bridge height ( was plenty ) and had a good look on the sheep wash corner for moored boats , water  was a bit lumpy and heavy but ok . 2nd time Clifton / Culham , yep that was lumpy and not nice  , wont repeat that  . Raced the boards from Abingdon to Caversham, lockies puting up red as we left the locks on each occasion, only took us 6hrs ! Didnt fancy getting stuck in Reading on the Kennet , hence Caversham, we were there 10days, there was a boat in County lock in Reading on the Kennet for a week ,    Bunny . 

I thought that one always raced through Woolhampton - only a question of whether one break the world record at the same time!

50 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I'm sure you're right, the whole subject is ambiguous. So I don't think you're necessarily technically "uninsured" if you make a considered move on red boards with the advice of lock keepers, etc. Just that in the event of a claim they may not pay out. But it amounts to the same thing of course. 

I don't think that such terms are ambiguous as technically that means that they are capable of more than one interpretation. In general they are portmanteau terms, usually with extensive legal history (such as 'reasonable') but which ultimately may require a court to determine in a specific case according to well established principles. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

Would the answer not be to get it confirmed in writing from your insurer if they would be happy for you to move your boat under red board conditions.

Assume you are "tongue in cheek". Ask that question of a Lloyd's underwriter and you would get a notice of cancellation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, MartinC said:

Assume you are "tongue in cheek". Ask that question of a Lloyd's underwriter and you would get a notice of cancellation.

Are you sure ?

They are more likely to think its the colour of the boards at the end of 'that' certain well known street in Hamburg where window shopping takes on a whole new meaning.

Image result for herbertstrasse images

Edited by Alan de Enfield
Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

Would the answer not be to get it confirmed in writing from your insurer if they would be happy for you to move your boat under red board conditions.

No insurance company would say ok because red boards could mean only just in the red and - for example - a suitably powerful boat with experienced crew would be no problem, but red boards could also mean a raging torrent with lots of dangerous debris churning around - bit like the River Severn at Gloucester on a spring tide.  So the skipper must decide if going on a red board is wise or reckless.

Edited by Chewbacka
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread has shown me that deciding whether to move on red when the skipper and lock keepers feel it's still reasonably safe to do so, is not a simple, straightforward issue at all. In future I will endeavour not to move on red, even if I feel it is safe to do so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, blackrose said:

This thread has shown me that deciding whether to move on red when the skipper and lock keepers feel it's still reasonably safe to do so, is not a simple, straightforward issue at all. In future I will endeavour not to move on red, even if I feel it is safe to do so.

For insurance reasons if nothing else I think thats a wise decision :) 

Rick

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/15/2018 at 12:55, dccruiser said:

 

I am a fine weather boater (you could class me as a continuous moorer), But except for red depth markers on some locks, I have not come across 'Red Warnings' - so am not aware of what they look like, or where they are, or what they mean.
 
A quick internet search under 'Thames' brings up many web pages - where one at random at the top of the list 'currently' shows numerous 'red' warnings for much of the Thames.
 
Where the description clearly says:    " We advise users of all boats not to navigate because the strong flows make it difficult and dangerous."
 
This to me is a more than a warning - it is a clear instruction - to be ignored at your peril.
 
But what if you have no internet connection to get updates - are these physical signs at locks ?
 
 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, blackrose said:

This thread has shown me that deciding whether to move on red when the skipper and lock keepers feel it's still reasonably safe to do so, is not a simple, straightforward issue at all. In future I will endeavour not to move on red, even if I feel it is safe to do so.

This is the decision i too came to a few years ago. It simply isnt worth the risk of having to argue the toss with some bloke in a suit sat in an office thats never even seen your widebeam or my narrowbeam when your chosen home is involved. I am more than capable in most cases to use rivers on red and have done so many times including commercialy but i no longer will take my home out on reds.

5 minutes ago, Horace42 said:
I am a fine weather boater (you could class me as a continuous moorer), But except for red depth markers on some locks, I have not come across 'Red Warnings' - so am not aware of what they look like, or where they are, or what they mean.
 
A quick internet search under 'Thames' brings up many web pages - where one at random at the top of the list 'currently' shows numerous 'red' warnings for much of the Thames.
 
Where the description clearly says:    " We advise users of all boats not to navigate because the strong flows make it difficult and dangerous."
 
This to me is a more than a warning - it is a clear instruction - to be ignored at your peril.
 
But what if you have no internet connection to get updates - are these physical signs at locks ?
 
 

Yes there are signs at locks usualy a strip of paited wood red at the top then yellow then green as it gets lower.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was waiting to move a boat from Pyrford to the GU several years ago and the Thames was in flood for months,  red boards from top to bottom with the Wey the same.

A short period of chance happened on the Wey, with a brief high pressure and localised relief. The next Brentford window was 2 weeks away so I went for it.  

Got to the bottom of the Wey with no issues but was warned about the wier pool 'whirlpool' below by the Wey lockie  and went right round the edge (pi$€ING off lots of anglers who hadn' seen a moving boat in two months). The Thames was a very swift passage, and probably not navigable the other way in a normal narrowboat. Red boards all the way but it was speed of flow, not river height that was the issue.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Horace42 said:
But what if you have no internet connection to get updates - are these physical signs at locks ?

It's usually a bit obvious if the river or canal  is in flood.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.