Moving on red flags

[X Alan W]

Can I ask what year was the Red boards,Lights etc.installed at Shardlow,River Soar, Trent, etc.

[mrsmelly]

21 minutes ago, X Alan W said:

Can I ask what year was the Red boards,Lights etc.installed at Shardlow,River Soar, Trent, etc.

Many years ago at Shardlow but not sure exactly when. I think though am not 100 percent sure they were here in 89 when I first came past but would not swear on it. They have certainly been here for a considerable time. The lights are situated at the flood lock about 500 yards before the actual Derwent mouth river lock that has the red boards on at the moment.

Edited March 11, 2018 by mrsmelly
fotos

[blackrose]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

At one time I would accept that the Thames lock keepers had excellent knowledge of their bit of river but not now. Too many volunteers, what used to be called summer reliefs, and moving between a variety of locks over a large area.  Some also seem to have little knowledge of boat handling. It seem I may have more knowledge of the river than they do. They also seem to put out the red boards well before their weirs are fully drawn these days.

I remember coming into Templecombe lock on Red on the Thames was a little scary because the weir stream flows directly into the lock entrance at a slight angle. So you have to steer into the weir stream and then quickly correct once the bow of the boat goes past the flow. Hambledon lock is similar except the weir stream comes in at 45 to 90 deg and you have a bit more room to steer. The Templecombe lock keeper and I both smiled at each other after I got bounced around and got in without hitting anything. All good fun though.  

Edited March 11, 2018 by blackrose

[Detling]

4 hours ago, blackrose said:

If you have the experience to navigate safely on tidal waters with strong flows, then you know that a similar level of hazard exists on non-tidal rivers on yellows or reds. The only differences being narrower waterways with bridges, locks, etc. Narrower waterways sometimes mean faster flows of course, especially on big rivers where a declining flood channels into a narrower cross section of river.

But anyway, the point is taken that an insurance company would take any opportunity to get out of a payment if a claim was made while navigating against the advice of the river authority, which in effect means you are navigating uninsured. That then makes me wonder why moving against such advice is permitted at all? After all, you can't get a river licence without showing evidence of valid marine insurance. If you invalidate your insurance by moving against advice why do lock keepers even let you through? Why are they operating the locks?

It also depends on the boat, some twin engined sea going boats with experienced skippers will have no problem at all, they have the power and the instruments to keep safe. Narrowboats unfortunately do not.

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, twbm said:

The answer is surely in the small print of the individual policy. 

Quite so, the lockkeeper has no idea of the details of your insurance. He /She is just warning you that you MAY invalidate you insurance if you proceed after being warned of high flow conditions. There are loads of boats that are insured that travel with full insurance in hi flow conditions, yours may or may not be one of them.

[mrsmelly]

13 minutes ago, Detling said:

It also depends on the boat, some twin engined sea going boats with experienced skippers will have no problem at all, they have the power and the instruments to keep safe. Narrowboats unfortunately do not.

The problem is that many narrow boat owners actualy think a narrowboat is a " Boat "  

[Mike Todd]

4 hours ago, Keeping Up said:

Presumably there is a distinction between types of insurance? They require you to have 3rd party insurance before they will issue a licence, but any payout after you sunk your boat would come under the "comprehensive" section of the policy.

My personal view is that if you are confident enough in your abilities not to sink the boat, then you should proceed in the knowledge that your insurer may not pay out. If you consider that the risk is great enough that you might need your insurance, then you should heed the signs and stay put.

The waiver that you used to be asked to sign on the Severn, was written in glorious (almost Mediaeval) language. Something along the lines of "I wish to assert my inalienable right of navigation on the river, and to proceed against the advice of the lock-keeper". I treasure my copy of that certificate!

The lock keepers are not empowered to prevent passage on most navigations however much they might like to do so, unless, of course, it is because of a lack of a licence. Even so they are trained to allow boats to gain safe haven even if not so licensed. Had a discussion last summer at Selby Lock about all of this as we encountered flood conditions and were advised not to exit, despite others doing so and telling us to ignore the lock keeper. We did not exit!

I happened to have our paperwork box out to check the policy number so I thought I would read through the small print. (Does anyone ever do so?) It states under Policy Exclusions:

wilful misconduct or acts of recklessness by you or other persons in control of your vessel including, but not limited to, conduct whilst under the influence of alcohol/drugs or navigating in contravention of "red" signals (boards/lights)" 

It does not specifically mention against advice but I suspect that they'd probably win under the concept of 'recklessness'. I'd in general agree with them!

[mrsmelly]

6 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

The lock keepers are not empowered to prevent passage on most navigations however much they might like to do so, unless, of course, it is because of a lack of a licence. Even so they are trained to allow boats to gain safe haven even if not so licensed. Had a discussion last summer at Selby Lock about all of this as we encountered flood conditions and were advised not to exit, despite others doing so and telling us to ignore the lock keeper. We did not exit!

I happened to have our paperwork box out to check the policy number so I thought I would read through the small print. (Does anyone ever do so?) It states under Policy Exclusions:

wilful misconduct or acts of recklessness by you or other persons in control of your vessel including, but not limited to, conduct whilst under the influence of alcohol/drugs or navigating in contravention of "red" signals (boards/lights)" 

It does not specifically mention against advice but I suspect that they'd probably win under the concept of 'recklessness'. I'd in general agree with them!

Good post. Another problem of course is at such a location that I am at at present where there are red lights and red boards but this is a self operated lock so the decision each time is down to the boater him/herself. There are no lockies experienced or otherwise here and the locks are not padlocked and there is one pretty big weir with a considerable pull on the approach to Sawley cut. Ok so the weir is protected BUT you would still be in serious poo ending up on this weir at this location!!

[nb Innisfree]

Taking any single engined boat onto a fast(ish) flowing river is a gamble, no amount of skill will be any use if engine stops. 

[Alan de Enfield]

A true story (I was there) that I posted a couple of years ago :

 

Rivers Can Be dangerous Places.

I am surprised that this has not been reported previously but the details are now starting to emerge.

A ‘few times’ hirer of NBs decided to buy one for themselves, a mooring was secured in a Marina.,

After a short time it was decided that the Marina was like a ‘Council estate’ and not what was wanted. So they booked into a Marina on the River Trent.

8th Feb 2016

Leaving the canals via ‘Meadow Lane Lock’ they joined the Trent – a fair bit of ‘flow’ was noticed but they were heading downstream & it seemed manageable, they went through the first lock at Holme Pierrepont without issue but as they approached Stoke Bardolph lock the flow ‘increased’ to the point they thought they would not be able to negotiate the lock and turned to get onto the visitors mooring, as they turned, the current ‘got them’ and took them sideways towards the weir and the ‘dolphins’ – no amount of engine or steering would turn them or allow them to retake control of the boat and they ended up broadside onto the dolphins.

After a couple of minutes the boat started to ‘roll under’ the dolphins, the steerers wife was thrown overboard as the boat went on its side, the steerer managed to grab her hand and keep her against the boat, realising that if she slipped she would be caught in the prop ( still in gear and under full power) he decided to let her go and stop the engine.

They were then swept under the dolphins, the ‘top-box’, the morse controls and rear railings were ripped off, water was taken aboard (but not a huge amount) as the boat went over the weir, ‘fortunately’ being in flood, the weir did not have a big drop and the boat survived intact and righted itself,

The boat then drifted into the trees below the weir, where more damage occurred as tree branches broke windows.

Fire Brigade and C&RT attended and everyone safely recovered.

Boat recovered and dried out, repairs made and C&RT provided a ‘steerer’ to continue the journey to its new marina (arriving yesterday, 18th Feb)

When asked why he left when the river was “in flood” the answer was “no one told me not to”.

 

When planning to boat on rivers :

 

Look at the conditions

Can your boat handle the flow ( power) ?

Have you experience to handle conditions ? – ask others

Anchoring system on board ?

Lifejackets for everyone on board ( NOT buoyancy aids)

VHF radio ?

 

If in any doubt DON’T go

 

Stay safe – stay alive.

[Bunny]

Crt are now using coloured sleeves on the lock beams on various locks on the Kennet  . We've navigated off the Kennet every spring since 2005 .... and I must admit ' raced through' Woolhampton on more than one occasion, and gone out of Fobney with the landing stage underwater ..... but we do ignore the sleeves if we judge the water to be manageable.  Bunny . 

[Dr Bob]

 

Taking any single engined boat onto a fast(ish) flowing river is a gamble, no amount of skill will be any use if engine stops. 

Depends on how big the mast and sails are?

[blackrose]

 

Quite so, the lockkeeper has no idea of the details of your insurance. He /She is just warning you that you MAY invalidate you insurance if you proceed after being warned of high flow conditions. There are loads of boats that are insured that travel with full insurance in hi flow conditions, yours may or may not be one of them.

"Hi flow conditions" presumably include tidal waters and most if not all NB insurance policies cover this. 

 

Taking any single engined boat onto a fast(ish) flowing river is a gamble, no amount of skill will be any use if engine stops. 

Except perhaps some skill in deploying an anchor...

[Bee]

Slogging upstream is tedious against the flow and most people look at the speed of the water and think Naah, stuff that. Going downstream looks ok but half a second of wrongness can't half go wrong big time.

[X Alan W]

 

Many years ago at Shardlow but not sure exactly when. I think though am not 100 percent sure they were here in 89 when I first came past but would not swear on it. They have certainly been here for a considerable time. The lights are situated at the flood lock about 500 yards before the actual Derwent mouth river lock that has the red boards on at the moment.

Thanks for that Info nothing of that nature in my boating days 1958/1972 some times in the flood you would get through Derwent mouth & Sawley flood lock & Bert the Sawley lockkeeper wouldn't let you through from Sawley cut onto the bit of the Trent down to Trent lock/Cranfleet cut /River Soar

[Horace42]

The general advice is not to ignore the warning signs. I doubt if you are covered by your insurance policy, but I think they would have to 'pay out' for damage you caused to third parties - and then probably sue you in court to recover their costs.

I have no independent evidence to support my view - but I am sure they would have a very good case to try - whereas in your defence,  you would not have a leg to swim on.

 

 

[WotEver]

 

The problem is that many narrow boat owners actualy think a narrowboat is a " Boat "  

I was once informed by a submariner that there’s only one kind of boat. Everything else is a target. 

[TheBiscuits]

 

I was once informed by a submariner that there’s only one kind of boat. Everything else is a target. 

[WotEver]

 

That truly DESERVES to be sunk. 

[mrsmelly]

 

I was once informed by a submariner that there’s only one kind of boat. Everything else is a target. 

Yep thats what they always said.

[Momac]

 

 

8th Feb 2016

Leaving the canals via ‘Meadow Lane Lock’ they joined the Trent – a fair bit of ‘flow’ was noticed but they were heading downstream & it seemed manageable, they went through the first lock at Holme Pierrepont without issue but as they approached Stoke Bardolph lock the flow ‘increased’ to the point they thought they would not be able to negotiate the lock and turned to get onto the visitors mooring, as they turned, the current ‘got them’ and took them sideways towards the weir and the ‘dolphins’ – no amount of engine or steering would turn them or allow them to retake control of the boat and they ended up broadside onto the dolphins.

After a couple of minutes the boat started to ‘roll under’ the dolphins, the steerers wife was thrown overboard as the boat went on its side, the steerer managed to grab her hand and keep her against the boat, realising that if she slipped she would be caught in the prop ( still in gear and under full power) he decided to let her go and stop the engine.

They were then swept under the dolphins, the ‘top-box’, the morse controls and rear railings were ripped off, water was taken aboard (but not a huge amount) as the boat went over the weir, ‘fortunately’ being in flood, the weir did not have a big drop and the boat survived intact and righted itself,

The boat then drifted into the trees below the weir, where more damage occurred as tree branches broke windows.

Sounds like they were lucky to survive.

Had they gone straight into the lock approach there would have been no problem.

 

[Naughty Cal]

 

A true story (I was there) that I posted a couple of years ago :

 

Rivers Can Be dangerous Places.

I am surprised that this has not been reported previously but the details are now starting to emerge.

A ‘few times’ hirer of NBs decided to buy one for themselves, a mooring was secured in a Marina.,

After a short time it was decided that the Marina was like a ‘Council estate’ and not what was wanted. So they booked into a Marina on the River Trent.

8th Feb 2016

Leaving the canals via ‘Meadow Lane Lock’ they joined the Trent – a fair bit of ‘flow’ was noticed but they were heading downstream & it seemed manageable, they went through the first lock at Holme Pierrepont without issue but as they approached Stoke Bardolph lock the flow ‘increased’ to the point they thought they would not be able to negotiate the lock and turned to get onto the visitors mooring, as they turned, the current ‘got them’ and took them sideways towards the weir and the ‘dolphins’ – no amount of engine or steering would turn them or allow them to retake control of the boat and they ended up broadside onto the dolphins.

After a couple of minutes the boat started to ‘roll under’ the dolphins, the steerers wife was thrown overboard as the boat went on its side, the steerer managed to grab her hand and keep her against the boat, realising that if she slipped she would be caught in the prop ( still in gear and under full power) he decided to let her go and stop the engine.

They were then swept under the dolphins, the ‘top-box’, the morse controls and rear railings were ripped off, water was taken aboard (but not a huge amount) as the boat went over the weir, ‘fortunately’ being in flood, the weir did not have a big drop and the boat survived intact and righted itself,

The boat then drifted into the trees below the weir, where more damage occurred as tree branches broke windows.

Fire Brigade and C&RT attended and everyone safely recovered.

Boat recovered and dried out, repairs made and C&RT provided a ‘steerer’ to continue the journey to its new marina (arriving yesterday, 18th Feb)

When asked why he left when the river was “in flood” the answer was “no one told me not to”.

 

When planning to boat on rivers :

 

Look at the conditions

Can your boat handle the flow ( power) ?

Have you experience to handle conditions ? – ask others

Anchoring system on board ?

Lifejackets for everyone on board ( NOT buoyancy aids)

VHF radio ?

 

If in any doubt DON’T go

 

Stay safe – stay alive.

If you have to ask others if you have experience enough to handle the conditions then perhaps staying put is the best option 

[blackrose]

 

If you have to ask others if you have experience enough to handle the conditions then perhaps staying put is the best option 

Perhaps, but it's not really about "having to ask", more about looking at the situation from other people's perspectives. We all have different levels of experience and different perspectives and there's nothing wrong with being cautious and asking around - better that than being over-confident! 

I'm a naturally cautious person and a cautious boater, yet I've been on tidal waters turning a big heavy boat against the tide and been on fast flowing rivers in spate. I've got a reasonable level of experience but I'm not embarrassed to ask around and seek advice.  

So I don't think it's literally asking others if you have enough experience, it's about talking to others and then assessing yourself whether you have the experience and whether your boat is suitable for the conditions.  

[Naughty Cal]

 

Perhaps, but it's not really about "having to ask", more about looking at the situation from other people's perspectives. We all have different levels of experience and different perspectives and there's nothing wrong with being cautious and asking around - better that than being over-confident! 

I'm a naturally cautious person and a cautious boater, yet I've been on tidal waters turning a big heavy boat against the tide and been on fast flowing rivers in spate. I've got a reasonable level of experience but I'm not embarrassed to ask around and seek advice.  

So I don't think it's literally asking others if you have enough experience, it's about talking to others and then assessing yourself whether you have the experience and whether your boat is suitable for the conditions.  

Or just staying put if you have to think about the situation that much.

[Paul C]

You could be world's best boat handler but if your boat is physically incapable of handling the conditions, it won't change the laws of physics - which remain remarkably consistent. 

In other words, the decision to go ahead anyway on red boards, is probably only applicable to those who have a suitable boat for the conditions. Not a narrowboat, nor a fat narrowboat.