Batteries (6v T105s)

[churchward]

You guys probably already know about these batteries but I managed to get some T105 6v batteries today (made by Trojan under another name) for £108 each when buying 4. I am using them in my off-grid garage to power it and the black waste digester air pump via solar at home. Making a 24V set from 4 of them.

Anyway they were supplied by Tayna (no connection to them just a customer)

They are doing a deal at the moment of 431.99 for 4 on eBay postage included. link below or the same on Tayna's site.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-x-Powerline-T105-Battery-6V-Deep-Cycle-Trojan/251354231086?epid=1936900709&hash=item3a85e1312e:g:D~MAAOxyTyBSU-pw

https://www.tayna.co.uk/industrial-batteries/trojan/t105-x4/

They are made by Trojan in the same factories as the T105 Trojan branded ones and seem to weigh just the same as I can attest to having lugged the in and out of the car!  The guy in Tayna said they are the same just not branded for Trojan.  We shall see if that is true but they certainly look and feel the same. If you need 4 of them £108 each seems a good price compared to £144 for a Trojan branded one.

[dmr]

Buts is this a bit like saying I've just got a Ford Ka but it was made in the same factory as a Ford Mondeo????

...............Dave

[churchward]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

Buts is this a bit like saying I've just got a Ford Ka but it was made in the same factory as a Ford Mondeo????

...............Dave

No I don't think so.

To use your analogy it is a Ford Mondeo made in the same factory but badged as a different name. The Powerline T105s are made in the same factory as Trojan T105s and to the same specification as far as I can tell they are in the same casing, same plates, same 225AH (C20) capacity .

Time will tell though if that is completely correct and they run and last the same as a Trojan T105.

[WotEver]

3 minutes ago, churchward said:

No I don't think so.

To use your analogy it is a Ford Mondeo made in the same factory but badged as a different name. The Powerline T105s are made in the same factory as Trojan T105s and to the same specification as far as I can tell they are in the same casing, same plates, same 225AH (C20) capacity .

Time will tell though if that is completely correct and they run and last the same as a Trojan T105.

The unknown quantity is of course the chemical composition of the paste. It may well be the same... or it might not be. 

[mrsmelly]

But why would they use everything the same so in fact producing an identical object and then sell them considerably cheaper thus undercutting their own other product? I am always wary of stuff thats supposed to be same as but much cheaper. Hope they prove to be good.

[churchward]

12 minutes ago, WotEver said:

The unknown quantity is of course the chemical composition of the paste. It may well be the same... or it might not be. 

Indeed so . T105s are wet flooded acid batteries. Only time will tell how they work out.  My solar will charge them full every day so they should be treated well enough.  I have some Trojan T105s as well and these are an addition so it will be interesting to compare.

You would think there is something different about them but as yet I can't find it other than the casing is black not maroon.

Edited March 7, 2018 by churchward

[churchward]

3 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

But why would they use everything the same so in fact producing an identical object and then sell them considerably cheaper thus undercutting their own other product? I am always wary of stuff thats supposed to be same as but much cheaper. Hope they prove to be good.

I don't know you would have to ask them.  Similar reason I guess that pretty much every wheat based biscuit like block (e.g. Wheatabix) consumed in the UK is made in the same place just branded differently.

Often it is to do the exact opposite have a products in all layers of the market and sell more.  There will always be people who do not trust the battery unless it has the "right" name on it. The Trojan ones may have a high margin on them.

I shall be able to compare directly with a set of Trojan T105s so we shall see.

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, churchward said:

I don't know you would have to ask them.  Similar reason I guess that pretty much every wheat based biscuit like block (e.g. Wheatabix) consumed in the UK is made in the same place just branded differently.

Often it is to do the exact opposite have a products in all layers of the market and sell more.  There will always be people who do not trust the battery unless it has the "right" name on it. The Trojan ones may have a high margin on them.

I shall be able to compare directly with a set of Trojan T105s so we shall see.

There is truth in what you say. In a previous life form one day I attended a large mushroom farm after a break in and looked round and spoke to the manager re the circumstances. he told me a little of their operation just out of interest and showed me a large packing area where they were pre packaging mushrooms for different companies such as ASDa and Kwik save etc. They were also labelled at different prices for different stores with identical mushrooms.

[Sea Dog]

19 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I am always wary of stuff thats supposed to be same as but much cheaper.

This reminds me of a matelot who paid rather over the odds for a cocky Rolex because the seller showed him the "genuine" Seiko movement inside. "So they can fake the rest of a Rolex but can't work out how to print Seiko on the insides then?" came the question. Nothing to do with Churchy's batteries; just an opportunity to swing a lamp.

[nicknorman]

 

[canals are us?]

Tayna have an offer on 4 Trojan T105's delivered.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/4-X-T105-Battery-6v-Deep-Cycle-Trojan/1136931490?iid=271293724535&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D49920%26meid%3Dbc442a777d284ff4a17958be6593c1c5%26pid%3D100623%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D251354231086%26itm%3D271293724535&_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1

James

[churchward]

1 hour ago, canals are us? said:

Tayna have an offer on 4 Trojan T105's delivered.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/4-X-T105-Battery-6v-Deep-Cycle-Trojan/1136931490?iid=271293724535&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D49920%26meid%3Dbc442a777d284ff4a17958be6593c1c5%26pid%3D100623%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D251354231086%26itm%3D271293724535&_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1

James

They are what I bought previously.

On weight differences I have weighed both Trojan and Powerline t105 batteries and they weigh almost the same certainly not 2kg difference.

If they were lighter it would explain something in terms of lower cost of production as I would assume less lead in the plates.

I may see if I can devise a measured consumption test to see if they are 225AH (C20) or not.

Edited March 7, 2018 by churchward

[dccruiser]

2 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

But why would they use everything the same so in fact producing an identical object and then sell them considerably cheaper thus undercutting their own other product? I am always wary of stuff thats supposed to be same as but much cheaper. Hope they prove to be good.

Only because you dont like smartprice cornflakes  

2 hours ago, churchward said:

Indeed so . T105s are wet flooded acid batteries. Only time will tell how they work out.  My solar will charge them full every day so they should be treated well enough.  I have some Trojan T105s as well and these are an addition so it will be interesting to compare.

You would think there is something different about them but as yet I can't find it other than the casing is black not maroon.

For the application you are using them, providing you have a facility for recharging in the winter when the solar is useless, I personally don't think you will see any difference whatsoever

Rick

 

[MtB]

2 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

But why would they use everything the same so in fact producing an identical object and then sell them considerably cheaper thus undercutting their own other product? I am always wary of stuff thats supposed to be same as but much cheaper. Hope they prove to be good.

 

Well to gain more market share. But manufacturers are not stupid. They know that if the Powerline batteries get a reputation for being every bit as good as T105s then eventually theT105 market will evaporate, so they have every incentive to make the Powerline batts a little less good, in order to protect their T105 market. They will be doing this knowing full well a new set of punters on the margin will now buy them because they believe (for no good reason other than they look the same and are made in the same factory) they are identical except for the labels. I bet they are not. 

[churchward]

34 minutes ago, dccruiser said:

Only because you dont like smartprice cornflakes  

For the application you are using them, providing you have a facility for recharging in the winter when the solar is useless, I personally don't think you will see any difference whatsoever

Rick

 

Even in North Wales I only get a few days of little power generated (but very much reduced of course) and since I don't do that much in the garage in the winter all it has to do is run the 90w air pump most of the time on the Black waste digester or poo tank as we like to call it. I can switch to mains power if required as I have the 240V system on a changover switch just like a boat with shoreline/inverter. I can run a charger if necessary to boost the batteries or just let them recover by the solar generation. I am putting a larger Inverter in for this summer so I can run some more power hungry stuff in the garage so the extra batteries will help with duration.

I can also power the house in a limited way lights, oil boiler Tv etc if we lose the mains in an outage or use a generator.

Edited March 7, 2018 by churchward

[churchward]

15 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Well to gain more market share. But manufacturers are not stupid. They know that if the Powerline batteries get a reputation for being every bit as good as T105s then eventually theT105 market will evaporate, so they have every incentive to make the Powerline batts a little less good, in order to protect their T105 market. They will be doing this knowing full well a new set of punters on the margin will now buy them because they believe (for no good reason other than they look the same and are made in the same factory) they are identical except for the labels. I bet they are not. 

You would think not but so far I can't find a difference. 

There are plenty of examples of other things that are made exactly the same in the same factory but branded differently and sold at different prices it happens everyday. There are always people who will put down the lesser brand without trying it or know anything about it. There is likely to be people who follow the marketing and want a Trojan because that's the brand and they are very good batteries too. Plenty of people buy VW cars even though there are other brands that are pretty much the same under the skin but cheaper.

I am not saying there is no difference I just am saying I haven't found one yet. 

it won't be an issue if they are a little light on the lead inside making them more like a T605 as they are good enough for what I want even if they are 7% less AH. But weighing the batteries they are the same as a trojan T105. Unless I have made a mistake.

 

Edited March 7, 2018 by churchward

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, churchward said:

But weighing the batteries they are the same as a trojan T105. Unless I have made a mistake.

 

My Yuasas each weigh the same as a T105 but they were a massive mistake!

(Ok I exaggerate. A minor mistake!)

[churchward]

11 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

My Yuasas each weigh the same as a T105 but they were a massive mistake!

Sure, I am not saying that it is all about what they weigh but it was suggested that the powerline T105 was 2KG less than the Trojan branded one making it more similar to a Trojan T605 which is 210Ah not 225AH. 

As a matter of curiosity what was/is wrong with your Yuasas ones? Are they AGM or normal flooded?

As long as they work well and last similar time to the Trojans with good charging all year round I will be happy. That of course only time will tell if so but I am not prepared to dismiss them just yet because they do not say Trojan on the front and aren't a maroon colour. If they do what I expect of them then they will be good value.

I only opened the topic to show a possible lower cost alternative for people, it is up to anyone interested to make their minds up if they are any good for their purpose.

Edited March 7, 2018 by churchward

[Richard10002]

18 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

My Yuasas each weigh the same as a T105 but they were a massive mistake!

(Ok I exaggerate. A minor mistake!)

As you may recall, I have 4 x T105 in a 12v system, and had more or less the same problems as you had with your Yuasas, (I think). I think we concluded that our charging regimes were at fault, partly due to Smartgauge reading 100%, thus suggesting they were full, when they were nowhere near. I think we had also been under the false impression that you could use batteries over a period of 3 or 4, or 7 days, without any charging, as long as we didnt go below 50% SOC, and charged fully before doing so.

We now know that we should charge to as close to 100% as often as we can.... daily if possible, and no more than every 2 days.

Since becoming aware of this, which seemed to coincide with my T105 bank falling to a capacity of 200Ah, (12V system), I have charged more or less fully, more or less every day of use, using tail current, and not Smartgauge, to identify full. The capacity seems to have remained at about 200Ah.

What I am trying to say is that your Yuasas may not have been a mistake, as I felt the same about my T105s.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to order 3 or 4 of the Exide batteries that Tony, (Brooks), has used successfully for some time:

https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/exide/er550/

 

[MtB]

17 minutes ago, churchward said:

As a matter of curiosity what was/is wrong with your Yuasas ones? Are they AGM or normal flooded?

 

They are FLA sold to me as slightly cheaper equivalents to T105s. 

Due to a massively out of calibration smartgauge I inadvertently badly undercharged them for three months before figuring out the problem. After that, they totally refused to respond to aggressive desulphation for dozens of hours. They behaved pretty much identically to £60 el cheapos. I still have them now and they are down to about 25% of badge capacity despite a summer of daily desulphating. They seem to have stopped degrading now.

[churchward]

34 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

They are FLA sold to me as slightly cheaper equivalents to T105s. 

Due to a massively out of calibration smartgauge I inadvertently badly undercharged them for three months before figuring out the problem. After that, they totally refused to respond to aggressive desulphation for dozens of hours. They behaved pretty much identically to £60 el cheapos. I still have them now and they are down to about 25% of badge capacity despite a summer of daily desulphating. They seem to have stopped degrading now.

Yes indeed no matter what the battery if you don't charge them right they get jiggered. I don't have a smartgauge in the garage just a monitor on the solar controller/charger showing battery voltage (the whole bank of course) and a hydrometer.  The solar is pretty good most days at getting them topped up especially when we get into longer days.

I do have a smartgauge on the boat and seems OK to me but I only use cheap batteries (and a bit of solar) on the boat as it seem to work fine as a holiday boat but unlikely to be suitable for live aboard.

I will be keeping a check on these Powerline T105s and comparing them to the Trojans and see if I think they are any good in a years time! 

Edited March 7, 2018 by churchward

[churchward]

23 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

As you may recall, I have 4 x T105 in a 12v system, and had more or less the same problems as you had with your Yuasas, (I think). I think we concluded that our charging regimes were at fault, partly due to Smartgauge reading 100%, thus suggesting they were full, when they were nowhere near. I think we had also been under the false impression that you could use batteries over a period of 3 or 4, or 7 days, without any charging, as long as we didnt go below 50% SOC, and charged fully before doing so.

We now know that we should charge to as close to 100% as often as we can.... daily if possible, and no more than every 2 days.

Since becoming aware of this, which seemed to coincide with my T105 bank falling to a capacity of 200Ah, (12V system), I have charged more or less fully, more or less every day of use, using tail current, and not Smartgauge, to identify full. The capacity seems to have remained at about 200Ah.

What I am trying to say is that your Yuasas may not have been a mistake, as I felt the same about my T105s.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to order 3 or 4 of the Exide batteries that Tony, (Brooks), has used successfully for some time:

https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/exide/er550/

 

There was a chap in Tayna in Abergele buying one of those for his motorhome today.  They were recommended to me at one time and I may get some for the boat when the set on there give up the ghost.  Another battery from Exide that was recommended to me was the ER660

https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/exide/er660/

I don't know much about them but they proved unsuitable for my garage solar setup as they are too long to fit into the battery housing I built and a bit awkward when pairing for 24v for me. They have good capacity though and if they last would be good value.

 

[luggsy]

How things have changed I bought 6 Trojans 6v T105 3 years ago ( next week ) of tayne for £605 delivered 

[rusty69]

6 minutes ago, luggsy said:

How things have changed I bought 6 Trojans 6v T105 3 years ago ( next week ) of tayne for £605 delivered 

That's s̶u̶l̶p̶h̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ inflation for ya.Its lead to l̶o̶w̶e̶r̶ higher charges .

 

[Richard10002]

9 minutes ago, luggsy said:

How things have changed I bought 6 Trojans 6v T105 3 years ago ( next week ) of tayne for £605 delivered 

Similarly, I bought my current 4 x T105s for £403 delivered in May 2015, so almost 3 years ago. Current prices represent an increase of almost 40% in 3 years.