CRT Licensing Review final report

[MtB]

10 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Yet an aim of Crt’s was to simplify the process. 

 

Yes of course it was. Did you actually believe them? lol!

Now, about that 'revenue neutral' thing....

[Alan de Enfield]

25 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

The extra income is soaked up with the additional administration needed to cope with the substantially increased complexity. 

So yes, net revenue neutral.

But revenue is the 'income received for the sale of its products', it is the top-line, or gross income, not income less costs.

The new licence system may be 'profit-neutral' (if it requires additional admin staff) but it will not be 'revenue neutral'.

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But revenue is the 'income received for the sale of its products', it is the top-line, or gross income, not income less costs.

The new licence system may be 'profit-neutral' (if it requires additional admin staff) but it will not be 'revenue neutral'.

 

Good point. 

Are CRT obliged in any way to stick to their stated 'revenue neutral' objective?

[Athy]

4 hours ago, furnessvale said:

Miles per gallon is an example of a conversion requiring two stages.

I can cope with one conversion, say miles to kms, or gallons to litres.  As soon as you require me to incorporate both in a single transaction the difficulty is MORE than doubled.  An example which I need to use frequently is ton/mile into tonne/km (in relation to freight movement).  Does my head in.

Do others think the same?

George

No.

[David Mack]

14 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

What is the side of a square of area one acre, please?

About three full length narrowboats.

[Naughty Cal]

12 hours ago, matty40s said:

Certainly not me, not only will it go up in 2019 by 3% inflation, it will also go up by losing 5% of the 'early payment discount' I have been used to for the last 10 years.

Nor me. Not only will we get the inflation rate rise,we will also lose 5% off the prompt payment discount plus will be charged an extra 10% because we are a 1ft wider then a narrowboat 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

Nor me. Not only will we get the inflation rate rise,we will also lose 5% off the prompt payment discount plus will be charged an extra 10% because we are a 1ft wider then a narrowboat 

 

Nor Me. Not only will we get the inflation rate rise, we will also lose 5% off the prompt payment discount plus we will be charged an extra 20% because we are 7 feet wider than a narrowboat.

Some folks must be getting a hell of a reduction in licence fees if C&RT have met their declared aspirations that the changes being revenue neutral.

Why can they not just tell the truth - they will gain much more respect.

[adam1uk]

20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Nor Me. Not only will we get the inflation rate rise, we will also lose 5% off the prompt payment discount plus we will be charged an extra 20% because we are 7 feet wider than a narrowboat.

Some folks must be getting a hell of a reduction in licence fees if C&RT have met their declared aspirations that the changes being revenue neutral.

Why can they not just tell the truth - they will gain much more respect.

Yet again, they’ve said the basic price will be frozen in 2019 because of the other changes. This has been pointed out several times in this thread.

[TheBiscuits]

Just now, adam1uk said:

Yet again, they’ve said the basic price will be frozen in 2019 because of the other changes. This has been pointed out several times in this thread.

They don't want to read facts, they just want a good moan  

[Naughty Cal]

24 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Nor Me. Not only will we get the inflation rate rise, we will also lose 5% off the prompt payment discount plus we will be charged an extra 20% because we are 7 feet wider than a narrowboat.

Some folks must be getting a hell of a reduction in licence fees if C&RT have met their declared aspirations that the changes being revenue neutral.

Why can they not just tell the truth - they will gain much more respect.

The only people who won't see a big increase in fees are those who don't use the prompt payment discount and own a boat under 7ft wide.

I would hazard a guess that about 98% of boat owners in our marina will see an increase in licence fees. Quite a substantial one on some cases!

5 minutes ago, adam1uk said:

Yet again, they’ve said the basic price will be frozen in 2019 because of the other changes. This has been pointed out several times in this thread.

How very kind of them 

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

The only people who won't see a big increase in fees are those who don't use the prompt payment discount and own a boat under 7ft wide.

I would hazard a guess that about 98% of boat owners in our marina will see an increase in licence fees. Quite a substantial one on some cases!

 

April 2019 - no surcharge for widebeams, no inflation-linked increase, prepay discount reduced to 5%

April 2020 - surcharge 5% for widebeams band 2 & 3, prepay discount dropped, up to 5% discount for paying online by card/ direct debit

April 2021 - surcharge 10% for widebeams band 2 & 3 

April 2022 - surcharge 15% for widebeams band 3

April 2023 - surcharge 20% for widebeams band 3

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, adam1uk said:

Yet again, they’ve said the basic price will be frozen in 2019 because of the other changes. This has been pointed out several times in this thread.

What C&RT have actually said is that it will depend on the inflation rate at the time - C&RT do not have a reputation of actually doing what they say. 

"As a result of this change in 2019, which will affect the majority of boaters (as around 75% receive the Prompt Payment Discount), the Trust intends to freeze the basic licence fees in 2019, subject to confirmation of underlying inflation later in the year".

Inflation is now at its highest for 6 years, it is forecast to drop this year and then steadily increase back to about 3%

 

Edited March 8, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[magictime]

£600 average licence fee this year plus 3% inflation-based rise minus 10% prompt payment discount = £556 to pay next year.

£600 average licence fee this year plus no inflation-based rise BECAUSE IT'S NOT HAPPENING minus 10% prompt payment discount = £540 to pay next year.

Now fair enough if you've got a widebeam you might be looking at a bit of a hike, but the idea that everybody is being stung with some sort of huge 'double whammy' seems pretty silly.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

April 2019 - no surcharge for widebeams, no inflation-linked increase, prepay discount reduced to 5%

April 2020 - surcharge 5% for widebeams band 2 & 3, prepay discount dropped, up to 5% discount for paying online by card/ direct debit

April 2021 - surcharge 10% for widebeams band 2 & 3 

April 2022 - surcharge 15% for widebeams band 3

April 2023 - surcharge 20% for widebeams band 3

So, assuming that the 'base rate' of charges remain fixed (zero inflationary increase) for the next 5 years I will see, in real terms an increase in costs of :

2019 = 5%

2020 = 10%

2021 = 15%

2022 = 20%

2023 = 25%

Compared to todays charges 

So, who is paying 25% less to 'balance the books' ?

I do not have any problem (financially or morally) in paying higher fees, but why hide behind some wooly statements - tell the truth - its all about income generation.

[TheBiscuits]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

So, assuming that the 'base rate' of charges remain fixed (zero inflationary increase) for the next 5 years I will see, in real terms an increase in costs of :

2019 = 5%

2020 = 10%

2021 = 15%

2022 = 20%

2023 = 25%

Compared to todays charges 

So, who is paying 25% less to 'balance the books' ?

I do not have any problem (financially or morally) in paying higher fees, but why hide behind some wooly statements - tell the truth - its all about income generation.

You have forgotten the 3% inflation increase on the current prices that will take place in 3 weeks, from April 2018 

It's 2019 that won't have an inflation increase.

I don't think it's far off revenue neutral in real terms, certainly for the first few years.

If you don't inflation link at 3-3.5% but reduce a discount to 5% for 75% of licencees, what extra revenue do you make?

Future inflation uplifts might take the widebeam surcharge into account, so I would expect to see boat licence income staying around the current £20M in real terms.

[MtB]

33 minutes ago, magictime said:

£600 average licence fee this year plus 3% inflation-based rise minus 10% prompt payment discount = £556 to pay next year.

£600 average licence fee this year plus no inflation-based rise BECAUSE IT'S NOT HAPPENING minus 10% prompt payment discount = £540 to pay next year.

Now fair enough if you've got a widebeam you might be looking at a bit of a hike, but the idea that everybody is being stung with some sort of huge 'double whammy' seems pretty silly.

 

How so? 

They are not applying the widebeam supplement next year. 

[KevMc]

16 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

Sensible: it's a coherent system of units, and doesn't need fudge factors to relate one parameter to another. "Pounds force" and "poundals" indeed. 

Degrees Celsius make perfect sense, especially since they go negative when water freezes.

The hectare is an easily visualised unit of area, since it is a square of 100m and there are 100 of them in a square kilometre, which is a lot easier than 640 acres in a square mile. What is the side of a square of area one acre, please? 

Kilograms are very convenient - think bags of sugar. The British/American systems disagree here because we were used to measuringn stones, and they use pounds.

A litre is a kitchen jug, and we have been happily buying diesel by the litre for decades. As I pointed out on another thread recently, our American friends can't even agree with us on how big a gallon (or a pint) is, and they measure solids by volume, for goodness' sake!

Easy enough to imagine a 1.8-metre bloke. He is also quite tall. Why does the metric measurement need quoting to a tenth of a millimetre?

Do you still convert £p to £sd?

I will concede Celsius for measuring low temperatures but we all know that hot is anything in the 80s Fahrenheit

An acre is a cricket wicket by a furlong (thought that was common knowledge) .. and yes there are 640 acres in a square mile - but who needs to know that for estimating the size of anything. Big things are multiples of Wembley Stadium (I'm never sure whether that is the new one or the old one - but does it matter when you are envisioning 20 or 30 times the size) , very big areas are multiples of Wales

Big in height is always in terms of London busses, distance in multiples of London to Manchester

Bags of sugar were always 2lbs when I was a kid - maybe they still are but sugar is the new poison so we aren't allowed to buy it .... jam was in a 1lb jar ... I know my weight in stones but kg make no sense at all ~ I wouldn't like to try to stop an 18st three quarter in full flight but 114 kg sounds pretty weeny to me

Just 'cos yanks got it wrong about how many oz in a pint (it does make them get drunk quicker over here when they drink full size pints of proper strength beer though so its funny) doesn't invalidate the value of having an imperial pint as a proper size for a drink of beer ... a litre is too much and 500 ml is a stupid size

It's pretty pointless converting to £sd these days cos nothing is priced that small ... but it's bl%dy stoopid charging 199.9 pence for a litre of fuel when performance is quoted mpg ... does anyone anywhere have a clue what the metric equivalent is, when we all know that 50-60 mpg is pretty good but 30mpg needs a mortgage to go on a road trip

[Athy]

6 minutes ago, KevMc said:

an imperial pint as a proper size for a drink of beer ... a litre is too much and 500 ml is a stupid size

 

I think it was a character in a George Orwell novel (1984?) who commented along the lines of "Half a litre don't satisfy and a litre gets me bladder".

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Athy said:

I think it was a character in a George Orwell novel (1984?) who commented along the lines of "Half a litre don't satisfy and a litre gets me bladder".

 

Well a pint is 565cc so not a lot different from half a litre. About 11% less if my mental arithmetic is right. 

[Athy]

10 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Well a pint is 565cc so not a lot different from half a litre. About 11% less if my mental arithmetic is right. 

568, I think, but I get your point. Don't blame me, blame that Eric Blair chap.

[MtB]

Lionel Blair, surely?

[alan_fincher]

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

April 2019 - no surcharge for widebeams, no inflation-linked increase, prepay discount reduced to 5%

April 2020 - surcharge 5% for widebeams band 2 & 3, prepay discount dropped, up to 5% discount for paying online by card/ direct debit

April 2021 - surcharge 10% for widebeams band 2 & 3 

April 2022 - surcharge 15% for widebeams band 3

April 2023 - surcharge 20% for widebeams band 3

 

1 hour ago, magictime said:

£600 average licence fee this year plus 3% inflation-based rise minus 10% prompt payment discount = £556 to pay next year.

£600 average licence fee this year plus no inflation-based rise BECAUSE IT'S NOT HAPPENING minus 10% prompt payment discount = £540 to pay next year.

Now fair enough if you've got a widebeam you might be looking at a bit of a hike, but the idea that everybody is being stung with some sort of huge 'double whammy' seems pretty silly.

 

What am I missing?  It says the prepay discount is reducing to 5% next year.

So shouldn't your second sum be...

£600 average licence fee this year plus no inflation-based rise BECAUSE IT'S NOT HAPPENING minus 5% prompt payment discount = £570 to pay next year?

So if someone currently gets prompt payment discount. the reduction in that more than wipes out the inflationary increase.

I think this is not cost neutral even to narrow beam boat owners.

Where am I wrong?

 

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Athy said:

I don't find it easy. I can imagine a six-foot man but I would have to calculate how tall a 1.8 metre man was.

Similarly I can visualise what a 12-stone person looks like but, although I could work out how much a 50-kilogram person weighed, the term would not give me an instant mental picture.

This is entirely down to you being used to feet and stone rather than metres and KG, though. If you'd been raised to use the latter units, you'd find it perfectly easy to imagine a 1.8m person, or a 50kg person. And metric units are just easier to work with one you do have a picture of how big they are.

Switching everything over to metric, rather than using our silly frankenstein system where we buy fuel in litres and measure consumption in mpg, for example, would be the sensible thing to do. Yeah, those of us used to the old measurements might have a tougher time (though if you start actually using them rather than the ones you're used to, you'll pick it up fairly quickly - I stopped using feet and metres became second nature before I knew it), but there's no sense in keeping the system confusing for future generations.

 

On topic, the changes, for the most part, seem pretty reasonable, but there's certainly going to be an increase in the cost of licensing for most people, and their representation of it all seems a little dishonest.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Guest

[Athy]

10 minutes ago, Isaac Beizsley said:

This is entirely down to you being used to feet and stone rather than metres and KG,

Of course it is.

[Naughty Cal]

1 hour ago, magictime said:

£600 average licence fee this year plus 3% inflation-based rise minus 10% prompt payment discount = £556 to pay next year.

£600 average licence fee this year plus no inflation-based rise BECAUSE IT'S NOT HAPPENING minus 10% prompt payment discount = £540 to pay next year.

Now fair enough if you've got a widebeam you might be looking at a bit of a hike, but the idea that everybody is being stung with some sort of huge 'double whammy' seems pretty silly.

98% of the boats in our marina are over 7ft wide. They will all incur extra charges as a result of this hash up of a licensing "improvement" as well as losing at least half of the prompt payment discount.