commissioning water system after long lay up

[Bazza954]

@Halsey don't forget when you check the pressures in the vessels, to make sure that the pumps are off and there is no pressure in the pipelines (taps open).

The bladder went in my vessel, took it apart, repaired pin hole with bike inner tube puncture repair kit, worked great since (3 years )

Hope this helps

 

Bazza

[Movin' on]

5 minutes ago, Bazza954 said:

@Halsey don't forget when you check the pressures in the vessels, to make sure that the pumps are off and there is no pressure in the pipelines (taps open).

The bladder went in my vessel, took it apart, repaired pin hole with bike inner tube puncture repair kit, worked great since (3 years )

Hope this helps

 

Bazza

Thanks for that - as I have a bit of time I have just borrowed a cycle pump and bought all the relevant cycle bits on fleabay and will check pressure and review before I spend app £60!

Thanks for your input.

[Bazza954]

7 minutes ago, Halsey said:

Thanks for that - as I have a bit of time I have just borrowed a cycle pump and bought all the relevant cycle bits on fleabay and will check pressure and review before I spend app £60!

Thanks for your input.

Your welcome, the bladder repair wasn't too bad to do, blowing it up to find the hole was the hard bit. The bladder rubber seemed to be the same as inner tube, I think that's why the repair has held.

Bazza     

[MtB]

2 hours ago, tree monkey said:

What if I assume I am normally wrong?

 

Then you'd be wrong.

I thought I'd made a mistake once, but I turned out to be wrong so I hadn't, I was right. 

[WotEver]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Then you'd be wrong.

I thought I'd made a mistake once, but I turned out to be wrong so I hadn't, I was right. 

I like being right when I’m wrong. 

 Our gas boiler at home just had its annual service and now sports a shiny new “Unsafe do not use” sticker. 

It’s not because it’s unsafe. 

It’s not because it leaks. 

It’s not because the CO readings were high. 

It’s because the very short flue, as installed by BG some years ago, has two bends in it and the new Gas Safe regs say that the flue must therefore have two supports! 

I’ve removed the sticker and tomorrow I shall fit the two support brackets that I’ve just bought. And it will make no difference whatsoever except to Screwfix’s profits. 

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, WotEver said:

It’s because the very short flue, as installed by BG some years ago, has two bends in it and the new Gas Safe regs say that the flue must therefore have two supports! 

 

Now that's interesting. New regs are not retrospective, so BG are either wrong now or they fitted it wrong in the first place.

Only the regs in force on the day of installation must be met. Makes sense really dunnit!

[WotEver]

39 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Now that's interesting. New regs are not retrospective, so BG are either wrong now or they fitted it wrong in the first place.

Only the regs in force on the day of installation must be met. Makes sense really dunnit!

Makes sense to me but due to the same change in regs some years ago they fitted a flame stop to the flue where it goes through the ceiling. Today’s guy said that wasn’t necessary because it’s a cold flue. 

Do you have any reference I could quote to show that the regs aren’t retrospective?

Today’s guy kept repeating “New regs come in all the time, you know how it is, so we have to ensure that every boiler meets the latest regs.”

[MtB]

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

Makes sense to me but due to the same change in regs some years ago they fitted a flame stop to the flue where it goes through the ceiling. Today’s guy said that wasn’t necessary because it’s a cold flue. 

Do you have any reference I could quote to show that the regs aren’t retrospective?

Today’s guy kept repeating “New regs come in all the time, you know how it is, so we have to ensure that every boiler meets the latest regs.”

 

Hmmm that's a tricky one. Its something I've picked up on training courses but I can't think of reference for it to cite. I'll ask in the 'combustion chamber'.

[WotEver]

11 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Hmmm that's a tricky one. Its something I've picked up on training courses but I can't think of reference for it to cite. I'll ask in the 'combustion chamber'.

Cheers. 

[MtB]

On 07/03/2018 at 19:04, WotEver said:

Cheers. 

 

Right, the 'combustion chamber' forum is very similar to here - my thread created a lot of heat and not much light. Lot of peeps saying the sme as me, that only the regs on the day of installation count but no-one can cite a reference. Most of the responses are completely missing the point and saying just fit some bloody clips on it if it is dangerous. 

A couple of points emerge, which I should have said in the first place...

1) "The regs" (i.e. the GSIUR 1998) have not changed. They are the same as when published in 1998. 

2) The 'guidance' (i.e. BSs, normative documents etc) which helps us comply with "the regs" changes all the time. 

3) 'AR' is advisory and does not mean the appliance is 'dangerous' now. It is an opinion that the installation is safe to use now but 'could' become dangerous at some point in the future. This is why the gas to your boiler will not have been disconnected, just the isolator turned off. You are at liberty to turn it all back on again and carry on using it (assuming you haven't already!)

 

 

Edited March 10, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman
To clarify something

[WotEver]

35 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Right, the 'combustion chamber' forum is very similar to here - my thread created a lot of heat and not much light. Lot of peeps saying the sme as me, that only the regs on the day of installation count but no-one can cite a reference. Most of the responses are completely missing the point and saying just fit some bloody clips on it if it is dangerous. 

A couple of points emerge, which I should have said in the first place...

1) "The regs" (i.e. the GSIUR 1998) have not changed. They are the same as when published in 1998. 

2) The 'guidance' (i.e. BSs, normative documents etc) which helps us comply with "the regs" changes all the time. 

3) 'AR' is advisory and does not mean the appliance is 'dangerous' now. It is an opinion that the installation is safe to use now but 'could' become dangerous at some point in the future. This is why the gas to your boiler will not have been disconnected, just the isolator turned off. You are at liberty to turn it all back on again and carry on using it (assuming you haven't already!)

Last point first, he turned off the boiler (but didn’t turn off the spur or the gas) and watched me turn it back on. He then filled in an AR form where he noted that I had refused to have the boiler disconnected. 

The flue exits the boiler vertically, goes through the ceiling into a tight corner of a small loft space above the utility and turns 90 degrees to now be horizontal, parallel to the outside wall. That first vertical piece of flue is about 500mm. The horizontal run is about 400mm, then it turns 90 degrees, staying horizontal, to exit through the wall (again, about 400mm).

When BG first installed the boiler they didn’t screw together the pieces of flue, only pushed them together. On one of the subsequent inspections the inspector noted that the joints must be screwed - so they sent someone to install some self-tappers. On another inspection the inspector stated that there should be a flame stop plate where the flue goes through the ceiling. So they sent someone out to fit one. On this inspection the chap said that the flame stop plate isn’t required because it’s a cold flue, but that the flue must have a clamp support on every change of direction, so two clamps. I’ve bought the clamps and I’ll do my best to fit them in a very confined space in due course. I might actually remove some roof tiles and cut the Tyvek in order to do the job from above yet, ‘cos I’m not sure I can get at it from inside the void. 

So... after all that I’m wondering...

1. Do the supports really need to be fitted?

2. If they do, why isn’t it BG’s responsibility to fit them?

Tony

[Neil Smith]

28 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Last point first, he turned off the boiler (but didn’t turn off the spur or the gas) and watched me turn it back on. He then filled in an AR form where he noted that I had refused to have the boiler disconnected. 

The flue exits the boiler vertically, goes through the ceiling into a tight corner of a small loft space above the utility and turns 90 degrees to now be horizontal, parallel to the outside wall. That first vertical piece of flue is about 500mm. The horizontal run is about 400mm, then it turns 90 degrees, staying horizontal, to exit through the wall (again, about 400mm).

When BG first installed the boiler they didn’t screw together the pieces of flue, only pushed them together. On one of the subsequent inspections the inspector noted that the joints must be screwed - so they sent someone to install some self-tappers. On another inspection the inspector stated that there should be a flame stop plate where the flue goes through the ceiling. So they sent someone out to fit one. On this inspection the chap said that the flame stop plate isn’t required because it’s a cold flue, but that the flue must have a clamp support on every change of direction, so two clamps. I’ve bought the clamps and I’ll do my best to fit them in a very confined space in due course. I might actually remove some roof tiles and cut the Tyvek in order to do the job from above yet, ‘cos I’m not sure I can get at it from inside the void. 

So... after all that I’m wondering...

1. Do the supports really need to be fitted?

2. If they do, why isn’t it BG’s responsibility to fit them?

Tony

It probably was their job to fit them and like you they could not get to it to fit them so didn't bother, meaning it is still down to them imho but good luck in getting them to do it.

Neil

[WotEver]

35 minutes ago, Neil Smith said:

It probably was their job to fit them and like you they could not get to it to fit them so didn't bother, meaning it is still down to them imho but good luck in getting them to do it.

Neil

If Mike confirms your opinion (which seems likely if the regs haven’t changed since 1998) then I shall be at my most persuasive on the phone on Monday. I can be pretty persuasive. I suspect that they won’t appreciate me pointing out that they made a potentially lethal installation

Edited March 10, 2018 by WotEver
Clarity

[cuthound]

I stopped using British Gas many, many moons ago following a billing dispute.

I said to them "if you can't get something as simple as billing right, how can I trust you with something as dangerous as gas?"

Nothing I have seen or heard about them since has changed my opinion.

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

I stopped using British Gas many, many moons ago following a billing dispute.

I said to them "if you can't get something as simple as billing right, how can I trust you with something as dangerous as gas?"

Nothing I have seen or heard about them since has changed my opinion.

It wasn’t even a BG inspector. He was from PH Jones who contract out to BG. 

[MtB]

4 hours ago, WotEver said:

Last point first, he turned off the boiler (but didn’t turn off the spur or the gas) and watched me turn it back on. He then filled in an AR form where he noted that I had refused to have the boiler disconnected. 

 

Under the old rules the action required for AR is to turn off, label appliance and issue written Warning Notice. No disconnecting required. That is reserved for ID (Immediately Dangerous). New rules just been issued recently and frankly, I haven't read them yet as the whole thing is a mess and the chair polishers change minor details of the procedures regularly.  

[MtB]

5 hours ago, WotEver said:

 

So... after all that I’m wondering...

1. Do the supports really need to be fitted?

2. If they do, why isn’t it BG’s responsibility to fit them?

Tony

 

1) Depends what you mean by 'need to be fitted'. They probably need to be fitted if you are to avoid jobsworth BG geezers ARing it each year. Chances are however, next year a different bod will come along and not notice the brackets and settle on some other trivial detail. Why do you care if the jobsworth has ARed it anyway? It is still 'safe' today or he would have IDed and diconnected it.

2) I'd be asking them to quote chapter and verse the "regulation" that demands these brackets and if they are important, why they didn't fit them in the first place when they fitted the boiler. And when that 'regulation' was introduced. I suspect it is just something made up by BG actually. BS 5440 part 1 deals with flues and was revised in 2000, 2005 and 2008 as far as I can discover. So no recent changes unless I'm googling wrong. If you actually want to read it you'll have to stump up £147 for a copy or it might be available on line at Manchester City Library (I think this is where Nick found a load BS standards readable for free.)

Also, focus on the fact the flue has been 'safe' for multiple inspections in the past so as nothing has changed, it is therefore still safe today. This AR stuff is reliant on an opinion that 'one day in the future but not today' it *might * get dangerous. A logical fallacy in my view. ALL gas appliances are inherently AR as eventually they will all get dangerous given enough passage of time.  

 

 

 

Edited March 10, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman

[WotEver]

36 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Depends what you mean by 'need to be fitted'. They probably need to be fitted if you are to avoid jobsworth BG geezers ARing it each year. Chances are however, next year a different bod will come along and not notice the brackets and settle on some other trivial detail. Why do you care if the jobsworth has ARed it anyway? It is still 'safe' today or he would have IDed and diconnected it.

If the regs say they should be fitted “at each change of direction” then to comply with the letter of the law, regardless of the fact that the flue isn’t about to fall apart, they should be fitted. 

The AR doesn’t affect me in the slightest but it’s a bit like getting an advisory on an MOT or BSS test, I’d rather address the issue so that I don’t get one. 

And I think it’s BG’s responsibility to sort it. 

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

If the regs say they should be fitted “at each change of direction”

 

The GSIUR (i.e. the regs) won't say anything detailed like that. They say sloppy stuff like 'no person shall install a flue in such a way as to cause a danger to a person'. Hence the need for 'guidance' (i.e. BSs) to follow. Following the 'guidance' guarantees immunity from prosecution onder the GSIUR as this is deemed to demonstrate compliance with the GSIUR. There may be other ways to comply with the GSIUR too. But if using other ways, one might need to convince a court those other ways are valid. 

[ditchcrawler]

How did he get on with the accumulators

[MtB]

Is your question mark key broken? 

[ditchcrawler]

18 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Is your question mark key broken? 

wot like yours is you mean 

[WotEver]

50 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

The GSIUR (i.e. the regs) won't say anything detailed like that. They say sloppy stuff like 'no person shall install a flue in such a way as to cause a danger to a person'. Hence the need for 'guidance' (i.e. BSs) to follow. Following the 'guidance' guarantees immunity from prosecution onder the GSIUR as this is deemed to demonstrate compliance with the GSIUR.

Ahh, so when he said “new rules” he meant a BS, not the actual regs. Got it. 

Still doesn’t answer whether they apply retrospectively I guess. 

[MtB]

15 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Still doesn’t answer whether they apply retrospectively I guess

 

Was this boiler fitted before 1998?

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Was this boiler fitted before 1998?

Nahhh. It’s a Glow Warm 18hxi. I think it would have been about 10 or 12 years ago now. How long have they been made?