New batteries

[bizzard]

54 minutes ago, Col_T said:

Sorry chaps, but I don't understand this.

If the 12.1v reading is taken at the battery terminals then that's the true reading, but surely any reading taken at a remote gauge would show less than 12.1v due to voltage drop along the cable run? How long a cable run would it need to be to give a significant voltage drop?

Eh!

[David Schweizer]

2 hours ago, WotEver said:

This sounds like the ideal installation for a SmartGauge to show the OP just what SoC he is actually dropping to daily. If he sees that start to increase then he knows he’s accumulating sulphation. 

When he was still posting, Chris Gibson (Gibbo of this Parish) recommended either US or Trojan deep cycle batteries as being the best to work with the Smartgauge, and after extensive bench tests came out in marginal favour of US batteries, but they were quite difficult to find in the UK in those days.

Edited March 5, 2018 by David Schweizer

[Rob99fla]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

It’s a public forum to which anyone can contribute so you have to take your chance and just ignore unhelpful advice! You have repeatedly typed amps when you meant amphours and this doesn’t help people to think you fully understand all the technical terms. Especially when you could type AH, which is fewer letters!

Anyway, your specific question has been answered a couple of times, the rest is just people trying to be helpful with varying degrees of success!

Yes the default tail current on the BMV is 4%, ridiculously high. You have reduced it to 2% but that is still on the high side IMO and you can expect some sulphation to accumulate long term, which you should monitor for and fix by equalisation when the cells’ fully charged sg doesn’t get to the manufacturer’s spec by 0.030 or so (temperature corrected, or course).

I don’t think the 2% setting is the reason for the halfords batteries demise, my experience with that type of battery is that they are intrinsically rubbish. But now you have batteries with the capability of lasting much longer, it becomes more important to fully charge because they will (hopefully) have much longer to accumulate slow sulphation. If you can continue the charge and reach 1%, or even 0.5% then clearly it wasn’t fully charged at 2%. Perhaps you should consider sticking with your 2% for most charges, and then perhaps once a week taking it down to 1% or lower (which takes a lot longer). Of course, with the summer coming and your solar, it will be easier to prolong the charge provided your solar controller doesn’t go to float too soon.

These sort of batteries do use water and I would say that if they don’t need topping up every few months, they are not being charged hard enough.

Your absolutely right. Perhaps I was being too picky on the (moaning!) post. There are some very knowledgeable people on here (yourself and others) who I can learn more from and appreciate the good advice. I will ignore the unhelpful comments. I sometimes even wonder is some advising even have a boat! I have no intention of ‘rubbishing’ my new batteries. I have bought a decent hydrometer with temp adjustment as I believe the only totally reliable test is the cell SG. With the quick release caps and easy accessibility, I can check the SG often. I have the software fit the Victron solar controller so can make sure absorption charge is long enough. Thanks again for the help and advice

[rusty69]

6 minutes ago, Rob99fla said:

I sometimes even wonder is some advising even have a boat!

Surely owning a boat is not a requirement for offering valid advice.

Please feel free to ignore this

Edited March 5, 2018 by rusty69

[nb Innisfree]

6 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Surely owning a boat is not a requirement for offering valid advice.

Please feel free to ignore this

Steer away I say. 

[Tony Brooks]

The OPs problem intrigues me so have been thinking about it.

If his Halford batteries had a similar capacity to the US ones then his daily load should have only discharged them to about 75% and that is around the 12.5 rested voltage, not 12.1 or 12.2.

The conclusions that can be inferred from this are:

1. He was not recharging every day.

2. If he was he was not fully charging them.

I suspect 1 and as Mike, I think, found that is a recipe for sulphation for live-aboards.

[WotEver]

Just now, Tony Brooks said:

The OPs problem intrigues me so have been thinking about it.

If his Halford batteries had a similar capacity to the US ones then his daily load should have only discharged them to about 75% and that is around the 12.5 rested voltage, not 12.1 or 12.2.

The conclusions that can be inferred from this are:

1. He was not recharging every day.

2. If he was he was not fully charging them.

I suspect 1 and as Mike, I think, found that is a recipe for sulphation for live-aboards.

I suspect 2. If I recall correctly (can’t be bothered to go back through 80 posts to look for it) OP stated something along the lines of “If no Solar then I’d run the engine for at least 2 hours”. That’s probably about 4 or more hours short of a full charge. 

[Tony Brooks]

12 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I suspect 2. If I recall correctly (can’t be bothered to go back through 80 posts to look for it) OP stated something along the lines of “If no Solar then I’d run the engine for at least 2 hours”. That’s probably about 4 or more hours short of a full charge. 

agreed.

[nicknorman]

Well yes but bearing in mind my experience of two sets of cheapo (from Midland Chandlers) batteries losing 50% of capacity in 6 month leisure use, despite being on shore power with a fancy Mastervolt charger between uses, and generally cruising every day for 7+ hours each day the boat was off shore power  (with a large alternator regulating at 14.5 - 14.6v), I think sometimes one has to just come to the conclusion that the batteries are not fit for purpose, unless you are the type of user for whom a 50% loss of capacity doesn't really matter.

With the same usage and charging pattern, my Trojans are now 4 years old and still have the badged capacity.

[WotEver]

4 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Well yes but bearing in mind my experience of two sets of cheapo (from Midland Chandlers) batteries losing 50% of capacity in 6 month leisure use, despite being on shore power with a fancy Mastervolt charger between uses, and generally cruising every day for 7+ hours each day the boat was off shore power  (with a large alternator regulating at 14.5 - 14.6v), I think sometimes one has to just come to the conclusion that the batteries are not fit for purpose, unless you are the type of user for whom a 50% loss of capacity doesn't really matter.

With the same usage and charging pattern, my Trojans are now 4 years old and still have the badged capacity.

I don’t disagree. However if OP was indeed running the engine for a couple of hours only then he’ll need to rethink that. 

[MtB]

3 hours ago, WotEver said:

Oh give it a rest Mike!

 

Each time you post incorrect information about the smartgauge I will challenge it. 

[smileypete]

For a rough rule of thumb for tail current 'stabilising' sufficiently I'd look for a fall of less than a third over one hour, coming out to less than 1-2% of batt capacity.

Of course this depends on correct charge voltage and healthy batts. I'm also open to changing my mind based on real world measurements.

Once a reasonable baseline is found this can be used without needing to do the above every time, maybe check every couple of months as batt condition slowly changes and seasonal temperatures changes too.

Edited March 5, 2018 by smileypete

[WotEver]

22 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Each time you post incorrect information about the smartgauge I will challenge it. 

Each time you post pointless unsubstantiated attacks on it I’ll ask you to give it a rest. 

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, David Schweizer said:

When he was still posting, Chris Gibson (Gibbo of this Parish) recommended either US or Trojan deep cycle batteries as being the best to work with the Smartgauge, and after extensive bench tests came out in marginal favour of US batteries, but they were quite difficult to find in the UK in those days.

Yup. That type of battery performs more like a battery should. Hence they’re easier to model accurately. 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, rusty69 said:

Surely owning a boat is not a requirement for offering valid advice.

Please feel free to ignore this

 

And equally, plenty of boat owners who have only the sketchiest understanding of batteries and hand out authoritative-sounding and misleading advice. 

So in summary, harvesting sound advice from forums means assessing the poster as much as their posts. 

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

And equally, plenty of boat owners who have only the sketchiest understanding of batteries and hand out authoritative-sounding and misleading advice. 

So in summary, harvesting sound advice from forums means assessing the poster as much as their posts. 

I agree.

It just seems an odd comment from the OP,as the answer he received very quickly on both of his posts on the subject were from @WotEver who as far as I am concerned dishes out great electrical advice but has no boat (correct me if i'm wrong please wotever).

[MtB]

Here is an open invitation to you. Come and see for yourself if you persist in maintaining I’m making it up. 

[MtB]

8 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I agree.

It just seems an odd comment from the OP,as the answer he received very quickly on both of his posts on the subject were from @WotEver who as far as I am concerned dishes out great electrical advice but has no boat (correct me if i'm wrong please wotever).

 

Wotever does however, seem unable to accept there is an indeterminate number of incorrect smartgauges out there despite the evidence.

 

[mrsmelly]

7 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Here is an open invitation to you. Come and see for yourself if you persist in maintaining I’m making it up. 

I have to say that one piece of equipment that I have considered buying on occasion over the years but will not be is the so called " smartguage " for me there are other bits of kit at a similar price that make more sense. I still don't understand why though I usualy get at least two years and often more out of a set of flas when others like Nick trashed them in six months light useage? Is it that some peeps put substantial draw on them with such as leccy kettles etc whereas I use TP for any major work? Having said that though I have had boats without TP and still got more than two years? weird innitt.

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

I have to say that one piece of equipment that I have considered buying on occasion

......along with Eco-fan (other fans are available)?

[Naughty Cal]

27 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I have to say that one piece of equipment that I have considered buying on occasion over the years but will not be is the so called " smartguage " for me there are other bits of kit at a similar price that make more sense. I still don't understand why though I usualy get at least two years and often more out of a set of flas when others like Nick trashed them in six months light useage? Is it that some peeps put substantial draw on them with such as leccy kettles etc whereas I use TP for any major work? Having said that though I have had boats without TP and still got more than two years? weird innitt.

We have had varying degrees of success with batteries over the years from 12 months with a single el cheapo to four years with our last pair of Varta's, at much the same time as others we reporting big problems with the same batteries not lasting more then a few months.

It can't just be luck of the draw and there has to be more too it then that.

[nicknorman]

35 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I still don't understand why though I usualy get at least two years and often more out of a set of flas when others like Nick trashed them in six months light useage? Is it that some peeps put substantial draw on them with such as leccy kettles etc whereas I use TP for any major work? Having said that though I have had boats without TP and still got more than two years? weird innitt.

Well I think it could be any of: Not all cheapo batteries are created equal; There is variation depending on how the batteries were treated before being delivered; Different users have different expectations and usage patterns. For instance, if you only have a couple of glow-worms in a jar and only discharge your batteries by 10% DoD, you can suffer a hell of a lot of lost capacity before it becomes an issue.

IMO there is no point in having a 2500w inverter fed by batteries, if those batteries are incapable of allowing the inverter to be run as intended without suffering rapid demise. Whereas with the Trojans, they seem quite happy with the same usage I inflicted on the previous 2 sets of cheapos.

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, rusty69 said:

I agree.

It just seems an odd comment from the OP,as the answer he received very quickly on both of his posts on the subject were from @WotEver who as far as I am concerned dishes out great electrical advice but has no boat (correct me if i'm wrong please wotever).

No, that is correct. I (currently) have no boat. 

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Wotever does however, seem unable to accept there is an indeterminate number of incorrect smartgauges out there despite the evidence.

I fully accept that there have been a handful. Out of the 10,000+ (that figure is several years old) that have been sold it accounts for an insignificant percentage. Before you jump in with more unsubstantiated suggestions that it could be a huge number, how then is it that EVERY independent reviewer is amazed at its accuracy and dependability. Do you suggest that they were just lucky? Or perhaps it’s more likely that the vast majority (well over 99%) perform exactly as they should. 

[bizzard]

I always buy cheap batteries. Shield cabin batteries were the last that lasted 5 years. Start battery 10 years.  I now have had a Halfords Start battery been on 2 years and a Halfords cabin battery, been on a month, so far superb.  I think very high discharges can ruin cheap batteries, perhaps buckles the plates. My battery is gently treated. If you jump start a lorry with a small car battery its liable to buckle the plates causing internal shorts. How do I know that, because I've done it with my Landrover 50a batteries in the past on call out emergences to large trucks and coaches which I should have towed to start.