The future of coal

[Wanderer Vagabond]

I can't seem to attach a link to it, but having picked up the Towpath Talk this morning there is a very relevant article on the cover relating to possible future restrictions on the domestic use of coal. I suppose that we should have seen it coming since almost all of our coal fired power station are either closed or planned for closure so the logical follow-on is to restrict the domestic use of coal but it does raise the question of what us liveaboards are going to do to keep warm in the sort of weather we have recently experienced.

Like most sensible liveaboards we have two forms of heating on the boat, neither of which looks like it has much of a future, a diesel fired Eberspacher and an Epping coal fired stove. Living off grid these are the only realistic means of heating since a gas central heating system would cost an arm an a leg to run and any electric heating just doesn't bear thinking about. Should we start stocking up on thermal underwear and Arctic standard sleeping bags.

On the practical front, since we are mostly moored up out 'in the wilds' it may be difficult for any practical enforcement to take place (assuming that I can source some coal from somewhere) but I can see a lot of ructions in London where there is talk of restricting land based properties from burning wood on wood fired stoves. If that comes to pass I can't see the residents alongside canals putting up with liveaboards burning coal and wood that local residents are forbidden to use. Things could get quite 'interesting'.

[TheBiscuits]

The less dramatic articles discuss banning house coal - not smokeless fuels.  They also are talking about banning burning unseasoned "wet" wood.

It shouldn't mean you can't run the stove, just that you can't create clouds of noxious smoke while you are doing it.

I understand that in France it is illegal to sell firewood that has not been seasoned for two years.

Edited March 3, 2018 by TheBiscuits

[Athy]

"Possible future restrictions" - not exactly hard news then, TT.

I haven't put any coal on our fire for over an hour now, so not guilty.

[Peter X]

My understanding is that the existing law allows for "smoke control areas" to be set up, e.g. this has been done for most/all of London and plenty of other places, where the domestic use of coal is restricted but smokeless fuels are allowed.

And that while boats are exempt, you'll soon find yourself pretty unpopular with the locals if you do start burning house coal on your stove in built up areas.

[Richard10002]

No need to burn smokey coal. There is lots of smokeless available, so pretty much a non story..... which is no surprise.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I can't seem to attach a link to it, but having picked up the Towpath Talk this morning there is a very relevant article on the cover relating to possible future restrictions on the domestic use of coal. I suppose that we should have seen it coming since almost all of our coal fired power station are either closed or planned for closure so the logical follow-on is to restrict the domestic use of coal but it does raise the question of what us liveaboards are going to do to keep warm in the sort of weather we have recently experienced.

Like most sensible liveaboards we have two forms of heating on the boat, neither of which looks like it has much of a future, a diesel fired Eberspacher and an Epping coal fired stove. Living off grid these are the only realistic means of heating since a gas central heating system would cost an arm an a leg to run and any electric heating just doesn't bear thinking about. Should we start stocking up on thermal underwear and Arctic standard sleeping bags.

On the practical front, since we are mostly moored up out 'in the wilds' it may be difficult for any practical enforcement to take place (assuming that I can source some coal from somewhere) but I can see a lot of ructions in London where there is talk of restricting land based properties from burning wood on wood fired stoves. If that comes to pass I can't see the residents alongside canals putting up with liveaboards burning coal and wood that local residents are forbidden to use. Things could get quite 'interesting'.

Do you mean coal or coke?

Important difference given I guess most boaters don't burn "coal'. I tried it once when we were desperate and it made a right mess of the Morso.

Ed. I've managed to read the article using their on line reader and it's a clear case of sloppy 'journalism', fudging a suggested ban on 'coal equates to a ban on smokeless fuel. Attention grabbing headline with nothing of real substance or concern to anybody who takes a responsible attitude to burning fuel on their stove.

A slightly more balanced report here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-42873645

 

Edited March 4, 2018 by MJG

[rusty69]

You really should stop reading the Daily mail. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

You really should stop reading the Daily mail. 

I seriously doubt WV is a mail reader.

Edited March 4, 2018 by MJG

[Athy]

6 hours ago, Peter X said:

My understanding is that the existing law allows for "smoke control areas" to be set up, e.g. this has been done for most/all of London and plenty of other places, where the domestic use of coal is restricted but smokeless fuels are allowed.

.

They have surely been in existence in some cities for many (I don't know how many) years and have been known as "smokeless zones" - so, as suggested , not really a story.

Regarding MJG's comment, what we burn alongside the logs in our stove is Taybrite, a smokeless fuel - I just think of it as "coal" because that's what it looks like (and I presume that it is some sort of treated coal).

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Athy said:

They have surely been in existence in some cities for many (I don't know how many) years and have been known as "smokeless zones" - so, as suggested , not really a story.

Regarding MJG's comment, what we burn alongside the logs in our stove is Taybrite, a smokeless fuel - I just think of it as "coal" because that's what it looks like (and I presume that it is some sort of treated coal).

'Proper' coal, is actually very different in appearance to Taybright Smokeless, other than they are both black of course. 

I'm showing my age when I used the term 'Coke' as it is a bit of an outdated term nowadays and I believe modern 'Smokeless' is subject to further processes that coke from my childhood days wouldn't have gone through in order to make it 'greener'.

The up shot is the article in TPT is an exaggeration, giving the impression that the burning of fuel on a MF stove is set to be banned when in fact the proposals are suggesting nothing of the sort. The BBC article I linked to appears to be closer to the mark. In reality in this day and age nobody should really be burning house 'coal' nor unseasoned/wet wood so anybody who is responsible wont have anything to be concerned about.

Mr. Kahn of course is still keen on the burning of wood (seasoned or not)  in certain areas of the capital but central govt. dont appear to be supporting hm on this. Of course a change of govt. could see change on that stance and that could affect boaters in London and possibly other cities too if the idea is replicated through the UK.

[X Alan W]

9 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

The less dramatic articles discuss banning house coal - not smokeless fuels.  They also are talking about banning burning unseasoned "wet" wood.

It shouldn't mean you can't run the stove, just that you can't create clouds of noxious smoke while you are doing it.

I understand that in France it is illegal to sell firewood that has not been seasoned for two years.

I service chainsaws & logging kit for a commercial setup  it"s a grey area regarding wood sales depends on the dept I think it's more a case of the customers being with it regarding the wood quality having used wood for donley's years for "Chuffage"

[Athy]

1 minute ago, MJG said:

 

I'm showing my age when I used the term 'Coke' as it is a bit of an outdated term nowadays

 

As was I when I failed to notice it as anything unusual. But when I come to think of it, I can't remember the last time I saw coke on sale or used. Is it still produced?

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, Athy said:

Is it still produced

It sure is. I get the diet version cos its easier to lift. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Athy said:

As was I when I failed to notice it as anything unusual. But when I come to think of it, I can't remember the last time I saw coke on sale or used. Is it still produced?

If it is, probably for industrial use but I can't recall seeing anything labelled as 'coke' for use in domestic premises for years. Though I am happy to be corrected everything these days sold is labelled as 'smokeless' - and has a fairly regular ovoid shape similar to the Taybright you burn. We burn Homefire Ovals and well seasoned wood on our (Defra approved for wood burning) stove.

[TheBiscuits]

13 minutes ago, X Alan W said:

I service chainsaws & logging kit for a commercial setup  it"s a grey area regarding wood sales depends on the dept I think it's more a case of the customers being with it regarding the wood quality having used wood for donley's years for "Chuffage"

OK, must be a regional thing then, but it always struck me as a good idea having seen some of the firewood for sale round here.

12 minutes ago, Athy said:

As was I when I failed to notice it as anything unusual. But when I come to think of it, I can't remember the last time I saw coke on sale or used. Is it still produced?

A boater we know only uses pet-coke on his stove because it's cheaper than smokeless fuel.  He is also on his third squirrel and thinks that morso stoves are rubbish. 

I have pointed out to him that morso say don't use pet-coke because it burns so hot it destroys the stove, but he keeps using it.  I haven't mentioned that saving a quid on a bag of fuel but buying a stove every couple of years is an expensive way to heat your boat.

[rgreg]

25 minutes ago, Athy said:

As was I when I failed to notice it as anything unusual. But when I come to think of it, I can't remember the last time I saw coke on sale or used. Is it still produced?

CPL make something they call " Domestic Coke" which looks, and burns, like a typical smokeless ovoid. It's just handwritten on a generic CPL bag.

Edited March 4, 2018 by rgreg

[springy]

AIUI Coke is/was one of the products of "the coal gassification" process i.e. the production of town gas, all of the volatilles have been driven off leaving a very light porous solid with a high carbon content and few impurities - as such it does burn clean but usually needs forced air to maintain the burn. It does burn hot and historically most would have been used in iron & steel making as it would not add impurities to the iron, important in the production of cast iron from a Blast Furnace and also when working iron in a forge.

The coming of North Sea Gas and Electric Furnaces means that very little is now produced or used.

 

springy    

[Athy]

12 minutes ago, springy said:

AIUI Coke is/was one of the products of "the coal gassification" process i.e. the production of town gas, all of the volatilles have been driven off leaving a very light porous solid with a high carbon content and few impurities - as such it does burn clean but usually needs forced air to maintain the burn. It does burn hot and historically most would have been used in iron & steel making as it would not add impurities to the iron, important in the production of cast iron from a Blast Furnace and also when working iron in a forge.

The coming of North Sea Gas and Electric Furnaces means that very little is now produced or used.

 

springy    

Thanks Springy -now you mention it, I do remember that it was a a by-product of, or connected to, town gas production.

It must have been fed into thousands of school heating boilers in bygone days. I recall that, when I was at primary school in Sheffield, every couple of weeks in winter a lorry used to deliver godknowsowmany tons of it which formed a mountain by one of the building's walls. Of course we children used to love running up and down the mountain, and of course Mr. Lancaster the caretaker would chase us off it - pausing only to pour salt all over the slides which we's made in the school yard. Miserable old git, was Mr. Lancaster, Health & Safety before its time.

Edited March 4, 2018 by Athy

[X Alan W]

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

OK, must be a regional thing then, but it always struck me as a good idea having seen some of the firewood for sale round here.

 

 

Could well be a ruling in big towns cities ,& also the Maries have a big say in what can/can't be in a good few places more so in rural area's We only sell a small amount to regular customers for fire wood Part of my wages is a supply of wood delivered in Metre lengths for cutting/splitting I try to keep it 2/3 years before use   it is delivered in late summer having been felled split etc the previous Sept  most keeping it a further year or possibly 2 mostly Oak Coppicing selected trees & planting 3 seedlings for each felled tree ensures an ongoing supply

Edited March 4, 2018 by X Alan W

[mrsmelly]

This marina I am STILL in because of the weather has a ban on Coal and wood and has done for years as do some  other marinas. Coal is much cheaper than smokeless but I don't know anyone who uses it anymore although some will. 

[MtB]

2 hours ago, Athy said:

As was I when I failed to notice it as anything unusual. But when I come to think of it, I can't remember the last time I saw coke on sale or used. Is it still produced?

 

I'm sure whoever supplies you with your dope could get you some coke. 

[Athy]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I'm sure whoever supplies you with your dope could get you some coke. 

Oh, we have that kind in the house - the Diet Coke variant which Mrs. Athy likes (and please don't call her a dope).

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

This marina I am STILL in because of the weather....................

Have you noticed the date ?

[mrsmelly]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Have you noticed the date ?

Just paid another two days till Tuesday  at this rate we will only get a seven month instead of eight month trip. 

[peterboat]

3 hours ago, MJG said:

If it is, probably for industrial use but I can't recall seeing anything labelled as 'coke' for use in domestic premises for years. Though I am happy to be corrected everything these days sold is labelled as 'smokeless' - and has a fairly regular ovoid shape similar to the Taybright you burn. We burn Homefire Ovals and well seasoned wood on our (Defra approved for wood burning) stove.

You are right Martin, the Wallers had their AGA converted to electric last year due to the difficulty and expense of getting coke! On the plus side for them 6 wind turbines are going up on the farm so as part of the deal their electric is free when it happens.

2 hours ago, Athy said:

Thanks Springy -now you mention it, I do remember that it was a a by-product of, or connected to, town gas production.

It must have been fed into thousands of school heating boilers in bygone days. I recall that, when I was at primary school in Sheffield, every couple of weeks in winter a lorry used to deliver godknowsowmany tons of it which formed a mountain by one of the building's walls. Of course we children used to love running up and down the mountain, and of course Mr. Lancaster the caretaker would chase us off it - pausing only to pour salt all over the slides which we's made in the school yard. Miserable old git, was Mr. Lancaster, Health & Safety before its time.

Dont you remember that was what Orgreave was a coking plant there was one at Brookhouse as well in Beighton