Polystyrene insulation

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

Rusty, would you agree? Can you see any other serious issues in the paper?

Yep concur 100% on the technical aspect of the paper Dr Bob, but your smell checker is in need of chicken.

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Crackers Biscuits,

@rusty69 and I are very interested in these technical papers but I am not sure I would pay too much notice of this one. This paper is all about finding a cheaper polyol to use as one of their reactants for the Polyurethane-Polyisocyanurate (PUR-PIR) foams and almost exlcusively targets high temperature stability. Now, maybe high temp stability (viz above 300°C) means higher crosslink density, so a more dense close cell nature, so better longevity to insulation properties. I would urge all readers here to review said paper to convince themselves that other papers may be better. Paper here at.

https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/thermal-properties-of-polyurethanepolyisocyanurate-purpir-foamsmodified-with-tris5hydroxypenthyl-citrate-2090-4568-1000148.php?aid=74306

There are a few things I would point to. Firstly this is all about a way to make cheaper polyols. They have only done it in a 3 necked 500ml flask (I would have use a 2 necked flask). There is zero scale up information. You cant comercialise something made in a 3 necked flask (or 2 necked for that case). You need significant scale up eperience which in turn requires a detailed risk assessment. If you are using 2-hydroxypropane-1.2.3-tricarboxylic acid as a reactant, you have to be careful. Secondly, the 2-hydroxypropane-1.2.3-tricarboxylic acid was supplied by Brenntag Poland LLC company in Kędzierzyn Koźle (storage in Toruń). With Brexit so close, I would think the import duty on said intermediate would seriously compromise the economics of scale up. All in all this is a typical university research project (when did university research projects ever create anything useful) and is on a hiding to nothing. Rusty, would you agree? Can you see any other serious issues in the paper?

See, I knew you wouldn't be able to resist.

I also knew that that particular paper isn't strictly relevant to the discussion, but it is open access and I liked the title.

 

[Dr Bob]

5 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

See, I knew you wouldn't be able to resist.

I also knew that that particular paper isn't strictly relevant to the discussion, but it is open access and I liked the title.

 

You only used that paper 'cause it was top of the list on google!

[TheBiscuits]

Just now, Dr Bob said:

You only used that paper 'cause it was top of the list on google!

Not on my original search, but I have to admit it was on the first page

 

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

You only used that paper 'cause it was top of the list on google!

It should have been on the bogroll shelf at Aldi imo Dr Bob.

 

ETA. They have some brass neck eh!

Edited March 5, 2018 by rusty69

[Dr Bob]

2 hours ago, rusty69 said:

 

 

ETA. They have some brass neck eh!

What, using a 3 necked flask?

[rusty69]

Just now, Dr Bob said:

What, using a 3 necked flask?

Well yes Dr Bob.That was my point.Only a fellow scientist could have picked up on an "in joke" like that.

[Dr Bob]

3 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Well yes Dr Bob.That was my point.Only a fellow scientist could have picked up on an "in joke" like that.

It's no joke. I couldnt use a 3 necked flask.

[Peter X]

4 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

That would be interesting when meeting a tupperware boat around a blind bridge'ole, let alone a steel one!

In the celotex boat topic I floated the idea of a boat with a wooden hull with a fully waterproof celotex outer layer, which I imagined could take the odd minor knock and just get a dent in the celotex. But if I had one my policy at blind corners would be to always give way, possibly having a crew member walking ahead as a scout. My guess is that polystyrene might be the more prone to breaking up.

[rusty69]

6 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

It's no joke. I couldnt use a 3 necked flask.

Reminds me of the old Florence flask joke (when I was studying for my PhD)

Florence Flask was getting ready for the opera. All of a sudden, she screamed: “Erlenmeyer, my joules! Somebody has stolen my joules!”

The husband replied, “Calm down, honey. We’ll find a solution.”

Edited March 5, 2018 by rusty69

[Dr Bob]

2 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Reminds me of the old Florence flask joke (when I was studying for my pHD)

Florence Flask was getting ready for the opera. All of a sudden, she screamed: “Erlenmeyer, my joules! Somebody has stolen my joules!”

The husband replied, “Calm down, honey. We’ll find a solution.”

How sure are you that that is funny?

[TheBiscuits]

12 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

It's no joke. I couldnt use a 3 necked flask.

Excellent retort.

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

How sure are you that that is funny?

I am certain it is hilarious.

[Machpoint005]

56 minutes ago, Peter X said:

My guess is that polystyrene might be the more prone to breaking up.

Bugger me! Does the Pope defecate in the arboretum too?

[rusty69]

That wouldn't be very Hyginus,but would be Hilarius.

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

Excellent retort.

I wont stand for that!

[TheBiscuits]

2 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

I wont stand for that!

Nope, I have been thinking for a bit, but you seem to have pipette me to the post on lab equipment puns.

 

[TheBiscuits]

I still can't come up with anything fractionally funny.

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

Nope, I have been thinking for a bit, but you seem to have pipette me to the post on lab equipment puns.

 

I think you win it on that one.

 

[Dave Hill]

As a complete newby to this group I feel somewhat humbled by the expertise demonstrated in the replies. 

We are currently in the process of buying our first narrowboat & one of my concerns is that she is insulated with either polyurethane or polystyrene sheets. This is a 2005 Aqualine vessel which seems fairly well thought of. 

The type of insulation is one of my greatest worries, as I would imagine that the air gap between the polystyrene sheets & the cold steel wall of the hull, would be a likely cause of condensation on the cold surface. Clearly those vessels with a spray foam insulation, will not be susceptible to the same concern, as the air gap should (in theory at least) be non existent. 

[dmr]

If the polystyrene has been well fitted then there will not be a problem. I suspect its easier to do a bad job with polystyrene than it is with sprayfoam so I suppose sprayfoam is a safer bet, but we do hear about bad sprayfoam jobs with small areas of exposed metal.

Sprayfoam is better but its not as clear cut as this forum makes out, the forum does tend to be a bit black and white at times.

Pumpout bogs are great, Morso Squirrels are not the only good stove, and engine rooms are not a waste of space.

................Dave 

[ditchcrawler]

4 minutes ago, dmr said:

If the polystyrene has been well fitted then there will not be a problem. I suspect its easier to do a bad job with polystyrene than it is with sprayfoam so I suppose sprayfoam is a safer bet, but we do hear about bad sprayfoam jobs with small areas of exposed metal.

Sprayfoam is better but its not as clear cut as this forum makes out, the forum does tend to be a bit black and white at times.

Pumpout bogs are great, Morso Squirrels are not the only good stove, and engine rooms are not a waste of space.

................Dave 

My spray foam was crap, as thick as a coat of paint in parts. They came from Wales to Suffolk to do it again

[TheBiscuits]

3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

My spray foam was crap, as thick as a coat of paint in parts. They came from Wales to Suffolk to do it again

Suffolk-ing long way that.

[Dave Hill]

8 minutes ago, dmr said:

If the polystyrene has been well fitted then there will not be a problem. I suspect its easier to do a bad job with polystyrene than it is with sprayfoam so I suppose sprayfoam is a safer bet, but we do hear about bad sprayfoam jobs with small areas of exposed metal.

Sprayfoam is better but its not as clear cut as this forum makes out, the forum does tend to be a bit black and white at times.

Pumpout bogs are great, Morso Squirrels are not the only good stove, and engine rooms are not a waste of space.

................Dave 

Hi dmr

Thanks for the reply. 

Your comment about the Morso Squirrel is interesting, as our survey showed that it was cracked & needs replacing. 

If you were to have a new one installed, what would be your preference?

PS: Sorry if my question is misplaced & off topic (I can re-post in the appropriate section if required) 

 

[dmr]

Just now, Dave Hill said:

Hi dmr

Thanks for the reply. 

Your comment about the Morso Squirrel is interesting, as our survey showed that it was cracked & needs replacing. 

If you were to have a new one installed, what would be your preference?

PS: Sorry if my question is misplaced & off topic (I can re-post in the appropriate section if required) 

 

You're getting into hot water here, almost as bad as pumpout vs cassette. There is loads of stuff on this forum about Stoves. I am a big fan of welded steel construction rather than cast iron (and we have one of each on the boat).

Exact choice depends on the layout of your boat, your personal preferences, and many other factors, so its not a trivial decision.

................Dave