Boat brokerage

[byanymeans]

Hi all,

Ive just recently bought a boat from a classified add on ebay. It turns out the guy is a broker. And now i have problems with the engine. I was so consumed with buying a boat i didnt get a reciept or title to it.

I never even thought that brokerage would be legal without rights ect.

I presume the broker has to declare hes a broker and give you a title between you and the original seller.

Has this broker broken any laws by not declaring himself as a broker and not giving a receipt or title.

Is there anyway i can get my money back or repairs to the boat.

He says hes going to ask the original seller to fund repairs but thats nothing. Ive threatened to take him to a small claims court. Given how niave ive been and how undisclosing the brokers been do i stand a chance of getting the repairs or refund awarded.

I feel like such a f'ing fool. There should be laws to protect the consumer from this sort of stuff.

 

 

Edited February 27, 2018 by byanymeans
revision

[frahkn]

I think it was unwise to name the guy at such an early stage, it's not likely to improve your relationship with him.

He should have declared the nature of his interest in the boat but either way you would still have a boat with a dodgy engine.

Also, and I mean this in the kindest way, there are degrees of idiocy that laws cannot be framed to solve.

[byanymeans]

Yes your right naming him is a bit preemptive.

Although i will do after i know what the outcome will be. I dont see why he should do it to someone else. Its a legal loophole being exploited by unscruplious people.

Perhaps i would have been a bit more cautious if i would have nown he was a broker im sure of it.

Besides i dont really want a repair doing im not confident it will be repaired right, probably some piston rings missing a honing job and bearings by some no name mechanic.

I might go a bit more easier on him if he does the job right.

Still i cant say a judge would be to happy with this fella so i might be best of going to a small claims court.

Edited February 27, 2018 by byanymeans
revision

[KJT]

If you bought it through eBay do they not have a buyer protection scheme? Perhaps if the goods (the boat in your case) were not properly described then you may have some sort of recourse. Also, how did you pay for the boat? If by credit card or PayPal then again you might have some redress through them.

Ken

[byanymeans]

Its a classified ad not "through" ebay. The boat was paid for by debit card. No money back there.

It might not need heavy work since it ran a bit of the choke, smoothly. And i hear running on choke dosent signal low compression.

Maybe the transportation journey did just as the broker said and made it run bad.

Could be a broken spark plug, or some dirt in the carbs. Whatever.

All is not lost i suppose.

[Naughty Cal]

Buyer beware when buying anything in this manner.

You have handed over money, albeit by debit card, and in return have no proof that you even own this vessel. Are you sure that you legally do?

Did you see it running and working before you transferred the money?

[Sea Dog]

8 hours ago, byanymeans said:

 

I feel like such a f'ing fool.

Look on the bright side - at least you got this bit right! 

You're focusing on the broker thing, and you may have a point there and a slim possibility of redress, but you'd be in no better a legal position (probably worse) if you'd bought the boat privately as you thought you were doing.  You say you may have even more careful if you'd known he was a broker, but the boat is in exactly the same condition. 

I'm sorry to say that you've done the same thing as many others before you (and many more will do in future): you've bought a boat without proper preparation, knowledge or due diligence.  Things will be easier for you going forward if you recognise that and get over it as best you can.  Difficult, I accept!

I think you should be trying to keep the broker on side if there's the remotest chance he can get the previous owner to help out, whilst quietly exploring your legal position in case you get nowhere by being friendly.

Sorry if that sounds a bit harsh, and I do hope things work out well for you.  The best news I can give you is that, once you're beyond the negotiations,  you've found the right place for advice on how to fix stuff!

Good luck! 

[Alan de Enfield]

There is no such thing as 'title' to a boat (little ones used on Inland waterways) No 'log-book', no 'deeds of ownership' and no legal way of proving ownership.

A broker is not responsible for any aspect of the boat (unless it is clearly different to the details used to sell it), a broker is solely acting as a 'facilitator' between seller and buyer. As a buyer you have no 'fit for purpose', trades description' etc rights.

If the seller/owner (not the broker) is selling the boat as part of a business, then you have legal protection..

Example : A broker takes a boat in part exchange against a new boat, that boat is now OWNED by the broker and when he sells it, he is selling it 'in the course of business' and you have full rights of protection, guarantees and money back etc etc.

It sounds as if you never even bothered to look at, or test the boat and just waited for it to be delivered.

If it was a bargain, did you wonder why ?

[Cloudinspector]

People mistakenly believe that buying from a broker gives some warranty protection. It doesn’t. The broker is simply selling a boat on the buyers behalf and any arising issues after purchase are between the vendor and new owner. As far as I’m aware a broker won’t or can’t sell a boat that doesn’t comply with BSS regulations and any failures that are highlighted in a pre purchase survey are the responsibility of the vendor to put right. At least that was the case that last time we purchased through a broker.

[WotEver]

Carbs, choke, spark plugs?  I presume it’s a petrol engine then? Is it an outboard? What exactly are the ‘problems’?

Edited February 27, 2018 by WotEver

[David Mack]

You said "it turns out the guy is a broker". So what did you think he was? If he hadn't declared himself to be a broker then you must have assumed he was a private owner selling his own second hand boat. In which case you would have no recourse for any defects. So what have you lost?

[Athy]

How did the engine sound when you ran it when visiting the boat before you bought it? Was its beat irregular? Did it emit excessive smoke? If not, then something has obviously happened to it since you bought the boat. What sort of guarantee did the broker offer or provide? If this is a known and reputable broker, they will not want theri good name besmirched, so it is reasonable to ask them either for a partial refund to cover the engine repairs, or to get the engine repaired/ serviced for you.

You DID run the engine before buying theboat, didn't you?

[Dr Bob]

You have not really given us enough information. Alan's example above is a good one. Who exactly did you buy the boat from? An individual? A company? A broker? That will say if you have any redress. 

If the broker bought the boat from someone in a private sale ( outside of his brokerage job) and then sold it to you then he may be running foul of his employment contract. You then have some leverage.

What did you pay for the boat and what is the boat? Did the description say anything about the state of the engine? Too  many questions to ask before you can advise on small claims court. The judge will be looking at facts not feelings.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Dr Bob

[David Mack]

3 minutes ago, Cloudinspector said:

As far as I’m aware a broker won’t or can’t sell a boat that doesn’t comply with BSS regulations and any failures that are highlighted in a pre purchase survey are the responsibility of the vendor to put right.

As far as I am aware there is nothing to prevent a broker selling a boat that doesn't comply with BSS regulations or any other requirements, providing there is no explicit misrepresentation. If a pre purchase survey shows up defects then responsibility for fixing those may be set out in the contract which both vendor and buyer have signed up to, but is otherwise down to haggling between the parties.

[Horace42]

There is a lot of law on this. It is under 'caveat emptor' - look it up!

Don't take the 'legal' route - that would become a long drawn out three-cornered fight of name and blame - costing large amounts of time and money (yours!!).

You have at least got the boat.  it will be a lot quicker (and a lot cheaper) to get the engine fixed. 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Cloudinspector said:

As far as I’m aware a broker won’t or can’t sell a boat that doesn’t comply with BSS regulations and any failures that are highlighted in a pre purchase survey are the responsibility of the vendor to put right. At least that was the case that last time we purchased through a broker.

 

This is all news to me. Your broker may have told you this is how he does business but there is certainly no legal obligation to do any of this. 

[MtB]

10 hours ago, byanymeans said:

Ive just recently bought a boat from a classified add on ebay. It turns out the guy is a broker. And now i have problems with the engine.

 

The question leaping off the page at me is were these engine problems present when you purchased the boat or have they developed since buying it? What sort of timescale are we talking about? And what sort of sums of money? Is this a knackered old outboard worth £50 or a decent inboard petrol engine? 

The thing to bear in mind is the broker may well have had no idea what condition the boat and engine were in. Brokers often know no more about the boats they are selling than you. It's up to you as buyer to assess the condition of what you are buying, unless you were given specific and verifiable assurances as to the condition of the engine which turned out to be false. Are you sure you haven't damaged it by incorrect use, not keeping the oil level correct for example?

And what do you mean by a broker anyway? Strictly speaking a broker is someone acting as an agent for the owner of the boat, and selling it on their behalf. Your purchase contract will be with the owner/seller and they are the ones to go after if you feel you've been mis-sold. If the broker is actually a trader in second hand boats you may have a few more rights but asserting them after being caught out can be the devil's own job.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman

[byanymeans]

Hi guys i did check the boat engine it had trouble idleing but did start and run he said it was probably the transportation. To be fair it could be muck dislodged in the fuel tank etc he said he had checked it before he came out. The boats not a week old. The engines an outboard. I thought the guy was a trader not a private seller or broker since hes got loads of boats for sale im a bit niave about boat trading but now i will have to learn my lesson. I reckoned that if anything went wrong with it. I could get him to fix it. Not the case. The boat is a dawncraft 22ft. The engine is a 15hp honda.

I agree waiting to see if they will fix it is the best option it cant harm.

If need be i will fix it myself or have the local boat services have a look at it. It cant be anything major and as i said the compressions fine so its got to be fuel or air related. A carb clean out maybe new fuel lines and a tank clean and it should be ok.

It will have to wait until summer though as its a project and im waiting for hardstanding.

I will update if the guy comes to fix it although im not hopefull. I will contact him about proof of ownership. The boats unlikly to be stolen since i checked with crt.

Edited February 27, 2018 by byanymeans
revision

[rusty69]

13 minutes ago, byanymeans said:

Hi guys i did check the boat engine it had trouble idleing but did start and run he said it was probably the transportation. To be fair it could be muck dislodged in the fuel tank etc. The engines an outboard.

Might be worth changing the fuel.Petrol doesn't like sitting in a tank for long periods of time.

 

ETA.Jets don't much like it either.

Edited February 27, 2018 by rusty69

[byanymeans]

Yeah its not going to be anything major.

I think i was just pissed and wanted a newer engine although i think this one will be fine.

The broker said he put a tenners worth of fuel in it.

[TheBiscuits]

11 minutes ago, byanymeans said:

If need be i will fix it myself or have the local boat services have a look at it. It cant be anything major and as i said the compressions fine so its got to be fuel or air related. A carb clean out maybe new fuel lines and a tank clean and it should be ok.

It will have to wait until summer though as its a project and im waiting for hardstanding.

The only advantage outboards have is that they can be removed from the boat and serviced in a workshop fairly easily.

You could get the engine in fine fettle to give you more time during the summer to work on the boat itself.

[byanymeans]

Yeah maybe in spring. I did pay quite alot for the boat so the engines an important part of the purchase. Dawncrafts do tend to go for a pretty penny even run down ones.

[Tony Brooks]

36 minutes ago, byanymeans said:

Yeah its not going to be anything major.

Don't be so sure although you are probably correct.

I know Honda outboards suffer from faulty ignition modules and the marine ones cost a fair bit. I understand pattern Honda motorcycle ones will do the job for far lest cost. Only consider this once the carb has been cleaned and the mixture set (if its so adjustable).

I also have an inkling that they tend to suffer from a poor ignition module negative/earth to the block.

[byanymeans]

I just spoke to the broker and he says hes coming to fix it next week reckons its the idle jet.

So we will see.

He also said hes sending me a receipt via email.

Edited February 27, 2018 by byanymeans
revision

[Markinaboat]

SURVEY, SURVEY, SURVEY! With a typical (BMF?) Bill of Sale (I have always used these myself when selling privately as it provides the buyer some protection under English law), you then have the right to pull out of the purchase with a full refund of your deposit should you be dissatisfied with the survey. However, this is invariably subject to negotiation and a good broker would make the vendor see 'light of day' as this would be in the vendor's best interest if he's serious about selling.

 

On the upside, should you not achieve an economical repair, there appear to be many working/VGC 15hp outboards on fleabay for a few hundred pounds.

 

Good luck with it all.