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Minormatt

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Basically the contract turned up and it became apparent that there was pretty much none of the documentation there should be... between the offer and now they have been attempting to get copies - and haven't managed it.

Still sure the boat is a good one - but the lack of paperwork was the issue

Contract never signed, no money changed hands and Nick even said he wouldn't have gone ahead when in the same position.  We have been told they will let us know if anything else turns up which may be suitable and would be happy for us to put offers on other boats

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2 minutes ago, Minormatt said:

Basically the contract turned up and it became apparent that there was pretty much none of the documentation there should be... between the offer and now they have been attempting to get copies - and haven't managed it.

Still sure the boat is a good one - but the lack of paperwork was the issue

Contract never signed, no money changed hands and Nick even said he wouldn't have gone ahead when in the same position.  We have been told they will let us know if anything else turns up which may be suitable and would be happy for us to put offers on other boats

Phew - close call, good escape.

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13 minutes ago, MichaelG said:

Hi, what responsibility does a broker carry for ensuring that their vendor has title to a boat they are instructing the broker to sell?

 

None.

Your contract is with the owner not the broker.

Well to be more expansive, no legal liability to. A moral and professional responsibility probably, but no legal obligation.

Why do you ask? Has something gone horribly wrong?

 

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Quote

 

I'm obviously out of date, but -

  •  aren't most brokers members of BMF (which has an inland waterways section)
  • there was a separate canal business association and Peter Milward and Dave Dare were members (but that was a 'lifetime' ago)
  • How does a seller produce a certificate of VAT paid if the  original invoice is missing?
  • How does someone (me...) produce the above if the boat is assembled from parts = self fitout?
  • Does a Ship registration count for anything? (It shouldn't!)

 

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50 minutes ago, MichaelG said:

Hi, what responsibility does a broker carry for ensuring that their vendor has title to a boat they are instructing the broker to sell?

 

37 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

None.

Your contract is with the owner not the broker.

Well to be more expansive, no legal liability to. A moral and professional responsibility probably, but no legal obligation.

Why do you ask? Has something gone horribly wrong?

 

As there is no official 'registration' or 'title' for inland waterways boats a Broker can do no more to ascertain ownership than you can do - he has to ask the question of the owner and having done his 'due diligence' can only say 'the information given to me is ..........."

Typical 'get-out' clause by brokers

No guarantee is given or implied with regards to specification but descriptions are given in good faith. All vessels are sold without warranty or condition as to the fitness either expressed or implied by status or otherwise. No appliances or systems have been tested. All measurements stated are approximate. These details are not intended to, and do not, form any part of any current or future contract. In this transaction we are acting as Brokers only. All sales subject to contract.We are relying on information supplied by a third party. All information is given as a guide. Plating thickness cannot be measured during GHBS visit while the boat is in the water and is based on information supplied by the owner. A prospective buyer is strongly advised to check the particulars and where appropriate at their own expense to employ a qualified Marine Surveyor to carry out a survey of the vessel.

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29 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

I'm obviously out of date, but -

  •  aren't most brokers members of BMF (which has an inland waterways section) Many are
  • there was a separate canal business association and Peter Milward and Dave Dare were members (but that was a 'lifetime' ago)
  • How does a seller produce a certificate of VAT paid if the  original invoice is missing? You apply to HMRCE for a Form T2L (EU wide document)
  • How does someone (me...) produce the above if the boat is assembled from parts = self fitout? There will be a VAT paid receipt / invoice for the Hull and for individual components (B&Q, Midland Chandlers  etc. till receipts for example)
  • Does a Ship registration count for anything? (It shouldn't!) Yes it is 100% guarantee of ownership if it is a part 1 registration, if Part 3 , then it means little, except to prove country of registration when entering foreign ports

 

A boat I purchased was missing much of its documentation (VAT certificate, RCD compliance etc) I had to apply for the T2L which was then issued respectively.

 

Lagoon 380 T2L.pdf

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

None.

Your contract is with the owner not the broker.

Well to be more expansive, no legal liability to. A moral and professional responsibility probably, but no legal obligation.

Why do you ask? Has something gone horribly wrong?

 

Hi, Ive made an offer on a boat which has been accepted. Ive asked the broker what paperwork, proof of the vendors title etc they have. I'm awaiting their response. The brokers have are one of a chain at a number of marinas around the UK and they tell me the paperwork will be held not at the marina but at the main office hence not being able to see it while I was actually there.

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11 minutes ago, MichaelG said:

Hi, Ive made an offer on a boat which has been accepted. Ive asked the broker what paperwork, proof of the vendors title etc they have. I'm awaiting their response. The brokers have are one of a chain at a number of marinas around the UK and they tell me the paperwork will be held not at the marina but at the main office hence not being able to see it while I was actually there.

 

Whilton then, lol! 

Tread carefully. 

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15 minutes ago, MichaelG said:

Hi, Ive made an offer on a boat which has been accepted. Ive asked the broker what paperwork, proof of the vendors title etc

When we sold WotEver the only ‘proof’ of ownership was that the last few licenses, BSS Certs etc were in our name. Oh, and a receipt written on a scrap of paper from the previous owner. Fortunately the buyer wasn’t looking for proof of title or VAT invoices or we’d have never sold her. 

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4 minutes ago, MichaelG said:

No not Whilton, ABC.

Ah ok. Don't know much about them but Alvechurch had a reasonable reputation IIRC. It just souned so 'whilton' to claim to have the paperwork but no you couldn't see it.

Have you asked why said paperwork is not kept in the same office as the boat is being sold from? They must get asked this by every potential buyer!

I still smell a rat.

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3 minutes ago, WotEver said:

When we sold WotEver the only ‘proof’ of ownership was that the last few licenses, BSS Certs etc were in our name. Oh, and a receipt written on a scrap of paper from the previous owner. Fortunately the buyer wasn’t looking for proof of title or VAT invoices or we’d have never sold her. 

Thats pretty much what I expect IE some paperwork to at least show that the boat has been in the possession of the vendor for the period suggested, ideally also some kind of receipt or bill of sale from when he bought it.

The broker suggested that their head office holds paperwork for boats being sold from their several marinas and the head office also deal with the payments and issueing the bill of sale etc to the new owner.

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1 minute ago, MichaelG said:

The broker suggested that their head office holds paperwork for boats being sold from their several marinas

 

This sounds a ridiculous arrangement. Sight of the provenance of a boat will always be expected by any halfway cautious buyer. 

A bill of sale is easily forged. A folder full of maintenance bills and license renewal notices all addressed to the current seller carries far more weight. Insist on seeing it, I suggest. Then check out and contact the seller to make sure he knows ABC are selling his boat!

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3 hours ago, MichaelG said:

Thats pretty much what I expect IE some paperwork to at least show that the boat has been in the possession of the vendor for the period suggested, ideally also some kind of receipt or bill of sale from when he bought it.

The broker suggested that their head office holds paperwork for boats being sold from their several marinas and the head office also deal with the payments and issueing the bill of sale etc to the new owner.

This is true.  I bought a boat from Gayton Marina (part of the ABC group), and all the sales paperwork was handled through Alvechurch.

I got the impression that the "brokers" at the various marinas do not do much more than show people round the boats, and all commercial dealing was with head office.

On the plus side, head office are professional and efficient.  If you have any queries about the paperwork I would recommend ringing ABC head office and talking to them about what is in the file.  They posted all the paperwork to me about a week after we had taken the boat away.

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The ABYA Brokers’ Code of Practice includes the following:
 
The broker shall collect all available title documentation from the Seller which should include, RCD compliance, evidence of VAT status, registration, outstanding finance, Bills of Sale from previous owners and Builder’s Certificate.  The broker should arrange for a new Bill of Sale from Seller to the Buyer to be completed and passed with all title documentation upon completion

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33 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Are you suggesting they should post the boat to you a week after you have taken the paperwork away ?

I've heard of a postal vote, but not postal boat.

Spose everyone else goes to the ballast box. 

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What paperwork? There isnt any necessary paperwork for boats in the UK. I have some with this boat and with one other of my previous seven boats but nowt with the others. Generaly there is as much legal paperwork needed as buying a used fridge.

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11 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

What paperwork? There isnt any necessary paperwork for boats in the UK. I have some with this boat and with one other of my previous seven boats but nowt with the others. Generaly there is as much legal paperwork needed as buying a used fridge.

You've left the fridge door open, haven't you. That's why it's been so damn cold these last two weeks. No wonder it's not summer yet!

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13 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

What paperwork? There isnt any necessary paperwork for boats in the UK. I have some with this boat and with one other of my previous seven boats but nowt with the others. Generaly there is as much legal paperwork needed as buying a used fridge.

That’s as it was with WotEver. Seller asked if we liked her, money changed hands, we sailed off. Same procedure when we sold her. 

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