CRT RIP OFF ALERT!! :(

[Horace42]

Sell your boat on the day the licence runs out, or include the licence in the boat sale and let it expire naturally. All the T&C's relating to change of ownership become a problem for the new owner and CRT. Let them worry about it - and run up a costly admin bill if they are bothered by it.

 

[Graham Davis]

26 minutes ago, Horace42 said:

Sell your boat on the day the licence runs out, or include the licence in the boat sale and let it expire naturally. All the T&C's relating to change of ownership become a problem for the new owner and CRT. Let them worry about it - and run up a costly admin bill if they are bothered by it.

 

Licences are no longer transferable between owners at point of sale.
System is now the same as with cars.

[Mike Todd]

39 minutes ago, Horace42 said:

Sell your boat on the day the licence runs out, or include the licence in the boat sale and let it expire naturally. All the T&C's relating to change of ownership become a problem for the new owner and CRT. Let them worry about it - and run up a costly admin bill if they are bothered by it.

 

At least legally, you cannot sell the licence with the boat - although at one time you could. The licence is now tied to the licensee and so when you sell, the new owner has to make a fresh application. You, the seller, are now left with an unexpired portion of the licence which you do not wish to use.  You have no 'right' to a refund as you got what you paid for - try looking at the licence T&C's. When this change came in, CaRT agreed to a refund policy as a concession - it could be withdrawn if they so wish and no-one would have much of a leg (or an oar) to stand on if they tried to complain. When you but a 12 month licence, that is exactly what you buy.

There are suspicions around, or were at the time this was introduced, about the reasons for it, often around issues that arose when - allegedly - some boaters push the boundaries of what is reasonable. There were certainly threads here, IIRC, that hinted at selling your boat to a friend when CaRT were getting stroppy about not moving and then buying it back again when the licence had been renewed under the name of a non-offender (allegedly). Whether any of that actually happened, there was a non unreasonable desire by CaRT to have up-to-date info on the person responsible for each vessel. Just read the other thread about a boat seemingly abandoned on the S&W. It seems that CaRT took some time to track down the whereabouts of the present owner. (BTW I have no idea whether the owner just went AWOL or whether it was an unrecorded change).

I'd be hard pushed to mount a meaningful argument that the present arrangement is, legally, unfair. There certainly is not one in the OP. I'm sure Nigel could have done a much better job!

 

ETA: the previous post appeared as I was submitting this one!

Edited February 24, 2018 by Mike Todd

[plainsman]

2 hours ago, one of the hidden said:

No doubt i'll get lots of posts that completely miss the point i'm trying to make, saying that i have a "hidden agenda"...there is no hidden agenda its called standing up for our rights as human beings!!

I would love to know what the point is I have missed? According to OP I am down trodden, being taken advantage of.  Keep telling the wife and kids that but they ignore my bleatings

 

2 hours ago, one of the hidden said:

Goodbye forever, the place i live now, is fantastic, because the people here are forward thinking, compassionate, human beings, that don't treat people like slaves, like you do in the UK!!

 

Hope this isn't a suicide note!

 

 

 

 

 

[BWM]

2 hours ago, one of the hidden said:

"For example, if i bought an item from a shop, as long as i return it, in a saleable condition and within a reasonable time frame, of say 30 days, i will get a full refund, as per the "Sales of Goods Act".

I think you are confusing the sale of goods act with the distant selling regulations, which allow 14 days to return unwanted/unused goods. 

I don't like this type of charge but it's not unusual these days. 

[GUMPY]

Oh my god I'm outraged on the O/P's behalf.

[Bod]

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/5962.pdf

Last paragraph of Schedule 4.

All is revealed.

 

Bod

[Sea Dog]

3 hours ago, one of the hidden said:

Goodbye forever, the place i live now, is fantastic, because the people here are forward thinking, compassionate, human beings, that don't treat people like slaves, like you do in the UK!!

So is that why you come on here for a mindless rant, because if you manked and moaned in Utopia they'd suss you out send you back to the UK? 

[matty40s]

I moved a boat up to Anderton in late August and handed the keys over to the new owner in a marina.

He called me in December having a hissy fit as I hadn't told him he needed a licence and the guys from CRT had been round the marina and collared him.☺

[Sea Dog]

4 minutes ago, matty40s said:

I moved a boat up to Anderton in late August and handed the keys over to the new owner in a marina.

He called me in December having a hissy fit as I hadn't told him he needed a licence and the guys from CRT had been round the marina and collared him.☺

Crikey, you're gonna be for it when he has to pay his marina mooring fees! 

[David Mack]

58 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

 

There are suspicions around, or were at the time this was introduced, about the reasons for it, often around issues that arose when - allegedly - some boaters push the boundaries of what is reasonable.

I thought the reason was quite simple. If a person buys a boat and takes over the unexpired portion of the previous owner's licence they have not anywhere signed to says that they are bound by the licence terms and conditions. By making new owners sign the form when they first buy the boat, no owner can later claim that they were unaware of the obligations on licence holders.

 

Excluding the admin charge, the refund you get is pro rata to the number of unexpired months on the licence. By getting a refund you are effectively swapping your 6 or 12 month licence for a shorter duration one. Had you bought that in the first place you would have paid a higher monthly cost anyway, so an admin charge to get closer to the cost of a shorter duration licence seem fine to me.

[MtB]

13 minutes ago, matty40s said:

I moved a boat up to Anderton in late August and handed the keys over to the new owner in a marina.

He called me in December having a hissy fit as I hadn't told him he needed a licence and the guys from CRT had been round the marina and collared him.☺

 

Did you congratulate him on evading three months of license fees before getting collared?

[TheBiscuits]

10 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Did you congratulate him on evading three months of license fees before getting collared?

Well it averages the £150 surcharge down to only £50 a month

 

[Horace42]

 

Replying to Graham Davis and  Mike Todd in particular.   Thanks for the explanation.

Apart from the OP losing the refund portion (but will avoid the £30). What will happen if he just doesn't tell CRT.

Having sold his boat and moved to Eutopia (somewhere in the Potteries - up Stoke way?) - it is not his problem -

Or are there legal on-going legal implications for a boat still licenced in his name - and will be until he tells them, ie, liabilities, insurance, fees etc ? - I guess there are.

Personally I would follow the T&C's - cash my chips - pocket the balance - and move on.

 

  

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Horace42 said:

Having sold his boat and moved to Eutopia (somewhere in the Potteries - up Stoke way?)

More likely Eritrea than Etruria or Eutopia.

[Mike Todd]

52 minutes ago, Horace42 said:

 

Replying to Graham Davis and  Mike Todd in particular.   Thanks for the explanation.

Apart from the OP losing the refund portion (but will avoid the £30). What will happen if he just doesn't tell CRT.

Having sold his boat and moved to Eutopia (somewhere in the Potteries - up Stoke way?) - it is not his problem -

Or are there legal on-going legal implications for a boat still licenced in his name - and will be until he tells them, ie, liabilities, insurance, fees etc ? - I guess there are.

Personally I would follow the T&C's - cash my chips - pocket the balance - and move on.

 

  

Could end up quite nasty - but he could get away with it. Depending on the insurer, he may be effectively uninsured, even if the new owner has paid a premium - if the policy specifies it applies only licensed boats. Any infringement by the new owner that is of interest to CaRT will be the responsibility of the seller, I'm almost sure. If he gives the (physical) licence to the new owner in a manner that implies that the licence remains valid then he could be at the wrong end of a claim from the new owner for misrepresentation. (see #37)

[Nut]

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Ahhh - you found the edit button - rather spoils the fun.

 

 

I'll go for :

a) China

b ) North Korea

you missed

C : watford

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Horace42 said:

 

Apart from the OP losing the refund portion (but will avoid the £30). What will happen if he just doesn't tell CRT.

If neither the seller nor buyer tell CRT that the boat has changed hands, then the seller will be who CRT go after if there is any breach of the Ts and Cs or other misdemeanour by the new owner. I also think it is a requirement to notify CRT when you you sell a boat and provide the new owner's details (same as when you sell a car).

So it is definitely in the seller's interest to notify regardless of any licence refund.

Edited February 24, 2018 by David Mack

[RLWP]

2 hours ago, Bod said:

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/5962.pdf

Last paragraph of Schedule 4.

All is revealed.

 

Bod

For clarity:

Quote

For example, a boater with a 12 month licence costing £600 contracted to pay in nine instalments by direct debit. He sells his boat in the fourth month after paying just two instalments (one of £120 and the other of £60). So the amount outstanding is £420. He applies for a refund and is entitled to 8 months of refund of (£600/12) x 8 = £400, so a sum of £20 (plus £30 administration charge) is still owed to the Trust

From the document found by Bod

You must be the only member with a theme tune I can whistle

Richard

[mrsmelly]

5 hours ago, one of the hidden said:

When you come to sell you boat & after you have exchanged with your buyer, you, the seller, can reclaim any full months of unused Licence time, in the form of a refund.

CRT seem to think that a Refund Administration Charge of £30, for pressing a few buttons, is acceptable, i, however, do not!!

For example, if i bought an item from a shop, as long as i return it, in a saleable condition and within a reasonable time frame, of say 30 days, i will get a full refund, as per the "Sales of Goods Act".

Additionally, CRT have already made a tidy amount of money by only refunding, full months of remaining licence.

So, as for CRT's Admin Charge, this appears to be yet another way in which CRT & there staff seem to think they can screw more money out of the people that keep them in business, so that they can sit on their damn back sides all day, finding excuses not to do anything remotely positive or productive, such as lubricate the working gear on the locks, so that boats can keep moving...they carn't even be bothered with basic maintenance of the canal system.

No doubt i'll get lots of posts that completely miss the point i'm trying to make, saying that i have a "hidden agenda"...there is no hidden agenda its called standing up for our rights as human beings!!

The canal system belongs to "everybody" and we pay monies to CRT to manage & maintain "our" system, but all we get in return is "DEATH TRAP FACILITIES @ FESTIVAL PARK MARINA" which FAILS CRTs "DUTY OF CARE" & also comes under "WILLFUL NEGLECT". They seem to think they can wash there hands because a thrid party is responsible for the maintenance of the facilities there. Think again CRT you are the Primary Party and ultimately responsible for that facility. And it can get to the stage where facilities are past the point of maintaining because they are that decrepit!!

The best they can do is send data collectors out, at licence payer cost. In my experience of boating for the last five years all this has done is alienate people, and made them anxious, depressed & paranoid, for what is supposed to be a leisure activity!!

The FACT IS policing, anything, costs more to administer than it will ever recoup!! 

Well done CRT i really do wish you well in your endevours to chase people off the cut, you will undoubtedly be the vitims of your own "success" and do yourselves out of a job, not that any of you really know what the defintion of work is...so i've put it here for you..."something that is done"...and you do nothing, but run the place down!!

Goodbye forever, the place i live now, is fantastic, because the people here are forward thinking, compassionate, human beings, that don't treat people like slaves, like you do in the UK!!

 

I think you have a " hidden agenda "

[JamesFrance]

It seems ridiculous to me that you cannot do an on-line notification of a change of ownership.   CRT have had the money for the year so why have all this beurocratic performance.

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, JamesFrance said:

It seems ridiculous to me that you cannot do an on-line notification of a change of ownership.   CRT have had the money for the year so why have all this beurocratic performance.

You can.

I'm no longer responsible for this boat's licence (transfer out)

Use this option to tell us that you are no longer responsible for licensing this boat. Please provide us with as much information about the new owner or lawful keeper as you have. 

Boat licences are not transferable, with the exception of a River only licence.

Transfer Out

Edited February 24, 2018 by TheBiscuits

[Phil Ambrose]

5 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

Thunderbox at a guess.

Deffo not, no loonies there.

Phil 

[mrsmelly]

What makes me giggle is we STILL get umpteen people on such forums as this moaning about various costs etc etc relating to their CHOSEN way of life or hobby. All these costs are easy  enough to find out about with basic research BEFORE boat purchase. I will again reitereate two things

1/ It is NOT cheap living on a boat

2/ It is NOT a cheap hobby

[Phil Ambrose]

9 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

What makes me giggle is we STILL get umpteen people on such forums as this moaning about various costs etc etc relating to their CHOSEN way of life or hobby. All these costs are easy  enough to find out about with basic research BEFORE boat purchase. I will again reitereate two things

1/ It is NOT cheap living on a boat

2/ It is NOT a cheap hobby

Totally agree, have a greenie

Phil