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dccruiser

boat fire

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6 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

Equally I have in the past had the stove where I believed the front was fully fastened, but it subsequently managed to "ping" open on its own.  Not a problem if you are there to witness it, but if you are not.....
 

Alan, I'm really interested in this. Can you pm/email me the details (do you know make model)?

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2 minutes ago, Rob@BSSOffice said:

Alan, I'm really interested in this. Can you pm/email me the details (do you know make model)?

Old style "Much Wenlock" mark II as originally made by Coalbrookdale, (quite different from later Muc Wenlocks made by Aga). Late 1980s or early 1990s, possibly.

However the issue proved to be that the last owner of the boat, who was a considerable bodger, had used a door rope of far too great a diameter.  I have since acquired the correct rope, and the catch now closes very convincingly, without the former struggle.

He had also used completely the wrong seals to replace the glass in the door, resulting in it cracking, (but not in a way likely to leak).

Unfortunately I guess any solid fuel stove can be rendered far less safe by "maintenance" using the wrong bits.

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4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

In view of the known dangers, I would suggest none.

It is speculation and maybe we should await the full findings, but how would the investigators identify that the door was intentionally left open, rather than not 'properly closed & latched' and during the night a log rolled within the fire box, pushing the door open and then rolled out ?

Both yes and no - more detail that will hopefully come out of the investigation will be useful

However until then, here some bullet points we are urging people to think about and act on:

Install stoves to BS 8511:2010 (not least the hearth details)

Manitain your stoves - check them routinely, it something is broken - fix it - not roundtuit!! Including door rope and catches.

Run the stove as per instructions - don't run it with the door open

Don't leave a stove running unattended unless you are confident it will be safe without your keeping an active eye on it.

Install smoke and carbon monoxide alarms

Push the test buttons regularly

Alarms are there to buy you vital seconds - use wisely - have a fire action plan. Everyome must know it and being to perform even when waking from 'deepest-sleep-o'clock' (including when its cold, dark freezing wet)

Have grab bag with all your vital bits not to lose in a fire and give you basic clothing/money/phone.

Don't leave extinguishers in the back of cupboards or under piles of towels, blankets, tools etc You need to be able to grab and go in seconds - they are there to help you escape.

Never, never, never, ever, ever, ever enter a boat at one end when the alternative exit is locked on the outside and cannot be opened from the inside. You do not want to be trapped in boat filling rapidly with a. highly poisonous fumes or b. water

 

These are generic points and are taken from the many non-fatal and the several fatal fires we have recorded and taken lessons from.

 

17 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Old style "Much Wenlock" mark II as originally made by Coalbrookdale, (quite different from later Muc Wenlocks made by Aga). Late 1980s or early 1990s, possibly.

However the issue proved to be that the last owner of the boat, who was a considerable bodger, had used a door rope of far too great a diameter.  I have since acquired the correct rope, and the catch now closes very convincingly, without the former struggle.

He had also used completely the wrong seals to replace the glass in the door, resulting in it cracking, (but not in a way likely to leak).

Unfortunately I guess any solid fuel stove can be rendered far less safe by "maintenance" using the wrong bits.

Very useful learning points - hope the peeps reading pay attention. I will report this back to base to take on board.

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9 hours ago, Jess-- said:

I know nothing about the fire in stone / who was involved / how it may have started etc....   but on the subject of stoves & bss checks.... it might help if all bss checkers actually looked at how the stove was installed and it's condition.

on a friends boat I warned them that their unused stove should be in instant bss failure.
obvious faults that I could see
1. cracked joint between stove & flue
2. cracked flue extending 1 inch below ceiling
3. no form of heat shielding near flue, flue runs within 2 inches of T&G, wood obviously discoloured from heat
4. wooden surround of tiled back obviously charred
5. cloth curtain hanging over stove / next to flue
6. soft furnishings (seating / bed) 2 inches from side of stove with severe charring to side
7. stove not fixed down

sure enough when the bss was done their boat failed the test..... because their bilge pump had no fuse inline.
nothing was asked or mentioned about the stove

luckily my friends aren't stupid and they could see that the whole setup on the stove was a disaster waiting to happen.

Jess if this event was after 2013 and the examiner is still registered - I need to know - send me a private message with the name and index/registration number of the boat.

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15 minutes ago, Rob@BSSOffice said:

Alarms are there to buy you vital seconds - use wisely - have a fire action plan. Everyome must know it and being to perform even when waking from 'deepest-sleep-o'clock' (including when its cold, dark freezing wet)

Rob is obviously knows his stuff and I'm in no way trying to teach him how to suck eggs, but I would like to add to this quote if I may - 

A study at Dundee University by one of the country's most experienced forensic / arson investigators found that almost all children will sleep through a fire alarm, even one right beside their bedroom. I'm sure that most parent would rush to their children in the event of danger, but it might be worth noting that they might not be as awake as you would expect.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/feb/23/smoke-alarms-children-sleep-through-fire-investigator

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38918056

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Just now, Tumshie said:

Rob is obviously knows his stuff and I'm in no way trying to teach him how to suck eggs, but I would like to add to this quote if I may - 

A study at Dundee University by one of the country's most experienced forensic / arson investigators found that almost all children will sleep through a fire alarm, even one right beside their bedroom. I'm sure that most parent would rush to their children in the event of danger, but it might be worth noting that they might not be as awake as you would expect.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/feb/23/smoke-alarms-children-sleep-through-fire-investigator

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38918056

My grandson didn't wake up when the CO alarm went off in the room he was sleeping in. Its been suggested they are fitted with a speech chip

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3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

My grandson didn't wake up when the CO alarm went off in the room he was sleeping in. Its been suggested they are fitted with a speech chip

That is frighting - can you now buy alarms that let you fit the speech chip?

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1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

My grandson didn't wake up when the CO alarm went off in the room he was sleeping in. Its been suggested they are fitted with a speech chip

 

Yep, we are aware of the research and naturally you would have expected us to raise it with CoGDEM and the FIA/FPA. It is a work in progress and no doubts the standards making committees are already on the case. the very moment the competent advice from these body changes, I'll be letting you know.

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14 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

My grandson didn't wake up when the CO alarm went off in the room he was sleeping in. Its been suggested they are fitted with a speech chip

Many (if not all?) fire alarms in the US have repetitive voice instructions as well as a siren. I've experienced this twice whilst working in NY .... "this is an emergency, leave the building immediately".

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54 minutes ago, Rob@BSSOffice said:

Jess if this event was after 2013 and the examiner is still registered - I need to know - send me a private message with the name and index/registration number of the boat.

it was Sept / Oct of last year but I don't know reg No. The inspector apparently tests most of the boats where they moor.

I will be seeing them again mid summer so I can get you more details then.

I do know that the stove / flue are both long gone from the boat since I last saw both in their back garden along with a lot of the interior.

Edited by Jess--

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Sorry but this thread should be about paying respects only.

 

This thread, just leave it and start another out of respect to those still in shock, I imagine many close boaters are struggling right now and the rescue people who we all 'sometimes think are in immune to coping.

 

No more discussion about why or if's

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, brassedoff said:

Sorry but this thread should be about paying respects only.

 

This thread, just leave it and start another out of respect to those still in shock, I imagine many close boaters are struggling right now and the rescue people who we all 'sometimes think are in immune to coping.

 

No more discussion about why or if's

 

 

 

I thought that was why this thread was started, because the other one was locked. Also I didn't read anywhere where it said it was for paying respects, not that anyone has been disrespectful. Surly its for discussion and I am sure the mods are watching and would soon take action if it was disrespectful  

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No we're all on the same team but, I don't think fault finding and causes should happen on here.

With respect.

 

I'll open one.

 

Edited by brassedoff
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11 hours ago, brassedoff said:

No we're all on the same team but, I don't think fault finding and causes should happen on here.

With respect.

 

I'll open one.

 

Empty Vessels!!

Edited by David Schweizer
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11 hours ago, brassedoff said:

No we're all on the same team but, I don't think fault finding and causes should happen on here.

With respect.

 

I'll open one.

 

 

I don't see any "fault" finding. 

Discussion of possible causes may well mean a life somewhere is saved and if anything positive comes from such a tragic situation then that has to be a good thing. 

I think perhaps what is needed is a thread where we can all celebrate the life that has been lost by sharing memories of happy times with Alex separate to this thread 

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48 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

Empty Vessels!!

Perhaps an unfortunate phrase, bearing in mind that the lady's vessel is regrettably indeed empty now.

I am pleased to see that Chesh has opened her "happy thread". I cannot claim to have known Alex but I certainly saw her steering 'tench', and the opening photo is a most suitable memorial.

Edited by Athy

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38 minutes ago, Athy said:

Perhaps an unfortunate phrase, bearing in mind that the lady's vessel is regrettably indeed empty now.

I am pleased to see that Chesh has opened her "happy thread". I cannot claim to have known Alex but I certainly saw her steering 'tench', and the opening photo is a most suitable memorial.

Yes perhaps, and I apologise if it has caused any offence. The main purpose of my comment was to reflect the pompous and hypocritical nature of Brassedoff's repeated demands, which she was not prepared to observe or institute herself.

Edited by Athy
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Does anyone one know if there has been an investigation into this incident and what the cause was, I take it it is Alex's boat in Rogers yard at Stone

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13 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Does anyone one know if there has been an investigation into this incident and what the cause was, I take it it is Alex's boat in Rogers yard at Stone

On 23/02/2018 at 15:24, Tam & Di said:

In addition to her name they also report:

A joint fire investigation has taken place with colleagues from West Midlands Fire Service and Staffordshire Police. This found that the fire started accidentally, after a log burner door was left open and a lit item fell onto nearby carpet.

Paul Shaw, Fire Investigation Officer, said: “Tragically, despite our best efforts a woman died as a result of this fire and our thoughts are with her family at this difficult time.

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10 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Does anyone one know if there has been an investigation into this incident and what the cause was, I take it it is Alex's boat in Rogers yard at Stone

Unusually in this case the fire service reported pretty quickly that they had investigated and believed they knew the cause.

This is just from the press reports no doubt already quoted in the thread.......
 

Quote

The fire service said, following its investigations it is believed a door had been left open on a multi-fuel burner, and a lit item fell onto a nearby carpet.


In those circumstances, I don't imagine the MAIB or other bodies are likely to have got involved, as it would sadly appear to have been simply an error made by the boat owner.
 

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3 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Unusually in this case the fire service reported pretty quickly that they had investigated and believed they knew the cause.

This is just from the press reports no doubt already quoted in the thread.......
 


In those circumstances, I don't imagine the MAIB or other bodies are likely to have got involved, as it would sadly appear to have been simply an error made by the boat owner.
 

 

I would refer back to my post No 37, dated 23/Feb

 

It is speculation and maybe we should await the full findings, but how would the investigators identify that the door was intentionally left open, rather than not 'properly closed & latched' and during the night a log rolled within the fire box, pushing the door open and then rolled out ?

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