boat fire

[dccruiser]

There was a boat fire in Stone last night , one lady and her dog was killed,no details have been released very sad reminder to be extra careful this time of year with stoves , candles etc. 

Condolences to her family.

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/local-hubs/staffordshire/stone/2018/02/22/woman-and-her-dog-die-after-canal-boat-fire/

Rick

[matty40s]

It is a very sad occurrence,  and thoughts go out to all who knew her.

This thread should not be locked like the last one. 

[ditchcrawler]

5 minutes ago, matty40s said:

It is a very sad occurrence,  and thoughts go out to all who knew her.

This thread should not be locked like the last one. 

Agree

[alan_fincher]

10 minutes ago, matty40s said:

This thread should not be locked like the last one. 

 

5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Agree

 

Difficult decision, but in this case I think the locking was sensible.

Elsewhere on the Internet some rather unpleasant speculative stuff got posted, which, even if ultimately proved to be true, I don't think should be put up in a situation where members of her family could see it.

Many of us know who this is, but it has not been officially announced.  Despite direct requests not to name her, people elsewhere have given away enough information that effectively it wouldn't have made a lot of difference if they had.

I understand people will wish to show their sadness, but not everybody sticks to only saying what is appropriate, sadly.

(Someone will no doubt now tell me I am being pompous).

[Athy]

4 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

 

 

(Someone will no doubt now tell me I am being pompous).

Well, such a judgement would not be a fair one..

In view of opinions expressed above, this thread will stay open for the time being. But would members please exercise caution in what they post on it..

[canals are us?]

A very sad situation for her family and all those who knew her. I'll await the official naming and cause of the fire. Sincere condolences.

James.

[Tumshie]

I would like to offer my deepest sympathies to the people who have lost their friend and loved one.

I am so terribly sorry.

Tumsh.

[cheshire~rose]

Suffice it to say that yesterday the boating community lost an especially vibrant member. She was a very well known lady and her untimely loss has sent a palpable shock wave through the community as so many people knew her. 

I won't name her here but if anyone needs to know then they can PM me. 

I think the angels may have had a wake up call yesterday because I reckon she would will have given their place a bit of a shake up within moments of getting there. 

RIP 

Please ensure you have working smoke and CO alarms fitted according to the manufacturers guidelines and test them today - boat and home!

Edited February 23, 2018 by cheshire~rose

[Bee]

Fire is a terrible thing. There seems to be rather more fires than you would expect on boats. If the majority are caused by stoves then I wonder if we are expecting too much from the installations? Maybe tiling on ply is not a good idea?, maybe having any ply lining behind or to the side of a stove is not safe and should be removed, cover the gap with tiled fireproof board? Maybe the top of the chimney where it passes through the ceiling should be looked at more closely? I have seen a fire caused (in a house) where logs were too close to the stove. Space is tight on boats, maybe we succumb to the temptation to fit stoves in too snug to the surroundings? Maybe some more research and recommendations needed? I wonder how many installations are OK but only just about? Just thoughts.

[roland elsdon]

Speculation as to cause is pointless. This is horrid and tragic and has been played out too many times. Let people remember and grieve without hype and conjecture.

Boat fires have so many causes, just have a look at your boats today people and think what do i do in a fire , how do i get out, is there a means of egress without passing a fire source, are there two exits i can get out of if one is blocked.

If one other tragedy can be prevented then something good can come out of this horror.

 

[Tony Brooks]

37 minutes ago, Bee said:

Fire is a terrible thing. There seems to be rather more fires than you would expect on boats. If the majority are caused by stoves then I wonder if we are expecting too much from the installations? Maybe tiling on ply is not a good idea?, maybe having any ply lining behind or to the side of a stove is not safe and should be removed, cover the gap with tiled fireproof board? Maybe the top of the chimney where it passes through the ceiling should be looked at more closely? I have seen a fire caused (in a house) where logs were too close to the stove. Space is tight on boats, maybe we succumb to the temptation to fit stoves in too snug to the surroundings? Maybe some more research and recommendations needed? I wonder how many installations are OK but only just about? Just thoughts.

Tiling over ply never was a good idea, neither is sheet metal over ply, both of which I have seen many times. You are right, tiles or metal sheet should cover fire board of some sort that is strong enough to support the tiles and then there needs to be a vented air gap so any radiated heat an be convected away. Also if that gap is properly vented the boater should smell/see smoke if timber starts to char.  Any flammable support of strut that would be in contact with the fire board needs to be protected by another layer of fire board in my view. The minimum clearances around the stove are easy enough to find and they are often part of the installation instructions. I have no idea why people ignore this. If space is tight get a smaller stove.

Many people also ignore any requirements for a fire proof hearth area the stove stands on. The specifications for this depend upon the design of teh stove.

My stove is installed as above and I have been advising like this for years. In my view the advisory BS for stoves on boats should have spent far more time on this that insulated flues. I also don't understand why the BSS does not make ensuring adequate heat protection mandatory. Just checking for signs of visible charring is, as we have seen all to often, inadequate with tiled/metal surrounds.

 

 

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

Speculation as to cause is pointless.

 

I fundamentally disagree. Here and now is not the time or place however.

Learning from past incidents is the first and most crucial step in preventing another identical incident, which I why I regret the desire in today's society to suppress discussion of what exactly lead to fatalities in accidents.

[roland elsdon]

Sorry Mike you are quite right speculation as to cause now is pointless.

Maybe another thread at a later date highlighting causes of near misses wouldnt go amiss.

[Jess--]

I know nothing about the fire in stone / who was involved / how it may have started etc....   but on the subject of stoves & bss checks.... it might help if all bss checkers actually looked at how the stove was installed and it's condition.

on a friends boat I warned them that their unused stove should be in instant bss failure.
obvious faults that I could see
1. cracked joint between stove & flue
2. cracked flue extending 1 inch below ceiling
3. no form of heat shielding near flue, flue runs within 2 inches of T&G, wood obviously discoloured from heat
4. wooden surround of tiled back obviously charred
5. cloth curtain hanging over stove / next to flue
6. soft furnishings (seating / bed) 2 inches from side of stove with severe charring to side
7. stove not fixed down

sure enough when the bss was done their boat failed the test..... because their bilge pump had no fuse inline.
nothing was asked or mentioned about the stove

luckily my friends aren't stupid and they could see that the whole setup on the stove was a disaster waiting to happen.

[peterboat]

Its difficult to find the words for accidents like this, but Mike is right at a later date when the facts are known we need to discuss these accidents to stop them happening again.

[alan_fincher]

For clarity, I agree entirely that eventually exactly what caused this needs to be understood.

As an aside, I didn't actually suggest that the previous thread should be closed, but I have since seen on Facebook some unfortunate speculation about the possible circumstances surrounding this incident that I really felt should not have been posted until due process has followed its course.

It is tragic that someone many of us saw alive and well enjoying herself the day immediately before this has died needlessly, and because of this I feel people should show restraint in the comments they make at this stage.

If any of us are in any way uncertain whether we have both adequate smoke alarms and carbon monoxide alarms this should be an urgent reminder to make sure we have, and they are in good order.

[ditchcrawler]

34 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Its difficult to find the words for accidents like this, but Mike is right at a later date when the facts are known we need to discuss these accidents to stop them happening again.

The discussion on here could well save another life before the results of the inquiry are published. If this fire had been on a boat and the owner was not know to some of the members here, and I don't know who she was then we would openly be discussing possible causes. Bee and Tony made some very valid points in there posting 

[Markinaboat]

Absolutely awful news. Condolences to all family and friends. x

[alan_fincher]

4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

The discussion on here could well save another life before the results of the inquiry are published. If this fire had been on a boat and the owner was not know to some of the members here, and I don't know who she was then we would openly be discussing possible causes. Bee and Tony made some very valid points in there posting 

Maybe then start a different thread that discusses in an anonymous way the dangers of having solid fuel stoves in boats, and how they can be mitigated against, but avoids any speculation about this particular tragedy?

Any discussion on CWDF that might  save a life can just as well be done in that way, and keeping it generic would not in my view devalue that discussion, but I can't see how pure speculation about any one incident can enhance that discussion, whilst it can distress those close to the person who's life was lost.

That is unless people actually already know facts about this particular tragedy, but everything I have seen so far, (in various places,) has been assumption, nothing more.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

That is unless people actually already know facts about this particular tragedy, but everything I have seen so far, (in various places,) has been assumption, nothing more

A terrible tragedy and a shock to all who knew her.

The unfortunate ladies name is being widely mentioned on other sites & I am not sure that withholding her name adds anything to respecting either her, or her family, but if that is the will of the forum, so be it.

This has been the reading at a number of funerals I have attended - I find it a somewhat comforting thought.

Death is nothing at all.
It does not count.
I have only slipped away into the next room.
Nothing has happened.

Everything remains exactly as it was.
I am I, and you are you,
and the old life that we lived so fondly together is untouched, unchanged.
Whatever we were to each other, that we are still.

Call me by the old familiar name.
Speak of me in the easy way which you always used.
Put no difference into your tone.
Wear no forced air of solemnity or sorrow.

Laugh as we always laughed at the little jokes that we enjoyed together.
Play, smile, think of me, pray for me.
Let my name be ever the household word that it always was.
Let it be spoken without an effort, without the ghost of a shadow upon it.

Life means all that it ever meant.
It is the same as it ever was.
There is absolute and unbroken continuity.
What is this death but a negligible accident?

Why should I be out of mind because I am out of sight?
I am but waiting for you, for an interval,
somewhere very near,
just round the corner.

All is well.
Nothing is hurt; nothing is lost.
One brief moment and all will be as it was before.
How we shall laugh at the trouble of parting when we meet again!

Source: https://www.familyfriendpoems.com/poem/death-is-nothing-at-all-by-henry-scott-holland

[Nightwatch]

I may or may not know who has suffered in this tragic incident. But, I can't help thinking that certain actions by members on here are only because they know the victim. In addition, my own thoughts and actions are as is being suggested here is to keep strum until further details are released.

I for one am starting my own little private speculation as to who it is. Names have been released in the past as the victims families have not been members on here. One unstance was the poor fellow and his Staffie at Tramways Banbury a couple or more years ago.

[BruceinSanity]

2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I fundamentally disagree. Here and now is not the time or place however.

Learning from past incidents is the first and most crucial step in preventing another identical incident, which I why I regret the desire in today's society to suppress discussion of what exactly lead to fatalities in accidents.

This ^^^

There will be an MAIB report in due course, no doubt, which always seem to manage to tease out the issues without assigning blame. The very thoroughness of the investigation means we have to wait a while for it, though.

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, Bee said:

Fire is a terrible thing. There seems to be rather more fires than you would expect on boats. If the majority are caused by stoves then I wonder if we are expecting too much from the installations? Maybe tiling on ply is not a good idea?, maybe having any ply lining behind or to the side of a stove is not safe and should be removed, cover the gap with tiled fireproof board? Maybe the top of the chimney where it passes through the ceiling should be looked at more closely? I have seen a fire caused (in a house) where logs were too close to the stove. Space is tight on boats, maybe we succumb to the temptation to fit stoves in too snug to the surroundings? Maybe some more research and recommendations needed? I wonder how many installations are OK but only just about? Just thoughts.

The points you raise were all covered in the MAIB report into the Lindy Lou fire a few years back. That report was partly responsible for the new stove guidelines that are out there. There is no shortage of information about good and bad practice in stove installation. What is needed is more emphasis on ensuring thay all new installations are safe and that existing unsafe installations are upgraded to avoid further tragedies.

Edited February 23, 2018 by David Mack

[alan_fincher]

53 minutes ago, David Mack said:

What is needed is more emphasis on ensuring thay all new installations are safe and that existing unsafe installations are upgraded to avoid further tragedies.

However, it is not safe to assume that if every installation was upgraded to the very latest thinking on best practice, that there would then never be any boat fires related to solid fuel stove installations.

I could have an installation that was fully compliant, but still choose to throw heaps of fuel on the fire, open both the top and bottom doors fully, and then lock up the boat and go off and leave it in that state.

There is then a very high chance that something bad will still happen.

Equally I have in the past had the stove where I believed the front was fully fastened, but it subsequently managed to "ping" open on its own.  Not a problem if you are there to witness it, but if you are not.....

My point is that, unless we know the facts for any particular incident, we can't be sure whether there was a basic flaw in the underlying installation, or whether there was a question of inappropriate operation of the stove.  It is a suggestion of the latter that has been posted elsewhere, but, lets be honest, most of us actually have no idea what applied in this case, and I think it is unhelpful to suggest what may well prove not to actually have been the case.  Let the investigators do their job, and publish their findings.

[peterboat]

13 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

However, it is not safe to assume that if every installation was upgraded to the very latest thinking on best practice, that there would then never be any boat fires related to solid fuel stove installations.

I could have an installation that was fully compliant, but still choose to throw heaps of fuel on the fire, open both the top and bottom doors fully, and then lock up the boat and go off and leave it in that state.

There is then a very high chance that something bad will still happen.

Equally I have in the past had the stove where I believed the front was fully fastened, but it subsequently managed to "ping" open on its own.  Not a problem if you are there to witness it, but if you are not.....

My point is that, unless we know the facts for any particular incident, we can't be sure whether there was a basic flaw in the underlying installation, or whether there was a question of inappropriate operation of the stove.  It is a suggestion of the latter that has been posted elsewhere, but, lets be honest, most of us actually have no idea what applied in this case, and I think it is unhelpful to suggest what may well prove not to actually have been the case.  Let the investigators do their job, and publish their findings.

^^^^ This I had the same happen on my Rayburn Royal the way it holds itself closed had worn, I threw coal on it caught with a woosh and blew the door open! the boat was filthy inside when I came back, and the fire was out! Because it is a proper installation nothing was damaged, the problem of the catch is sorted and my mates has been done as well. This is the crux of the matter, we can all talk about me I am alive and kicking but the person concerned isnt, lets wait until we know whats happened before discussing it, and in the meantime open a new thread as others have said