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How is your side hatch secured?


Froggy

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First and foremost, be careful what you post in this thread, and please don't compromise the security of your boat, but notwithstanding this any advice would be appreciated.

This is our first boat, and shortly after we took possession back in November 2016 we struggled to open the side hatch (even though the vendor had done so when we'd viewed). Later that day whilst i was elsewhere in the boat my other half managed to force it open somehow, but consequently neither of us could work out how it had been secured. We bodged something together with a bolt, a small plate, and a wing-nut, using a pre-existing hole in the overlap of the left door, as shown in the photographs. However, this allows the door to bow open by a few inches when pushed (or pulled from the outside), so the door could easily be forced open. Before venturing back out on the cut again we are keen to improve the security on this hatch. The obvious solution is to drill a couple of holes and screw in a couple of bolts, but we've scratched our heads over the ensuing months trying to work out how the original fitters (JD Narrowboats of Gailey) secured this hatch, since there are no signs of bolt holes in the frame or screw holes in the doors. Can anybody provide any clues or make any suggestions? It's not clear from the photographs but there was a slightly larger hole than the one we are using that somewhere along the way has been filled.

Edited by Froggy
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Could it have been a long bar, through the two loops and across the framework at each end? A bit like the way an old fashioned càstle door would be secured with a heavy beam in loops just before someone goes at it with a battering ram.

 Most nb side hatches are only as strong as the short screws used to hold the bolts, or the glue or screws holding the woodwork to the steel. Few would survive a crowbar attack.

Jen

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4 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Could it have been a long bar, through the two loops and across the framework at each end? A bit like the way an old fashioned càstle door would be secured with a heavy beam in loops just before someone goes at it with a battering ram.

 Most nb side hatches are only as strong as the short screws used to hold the bolts, or the glue or screws holding the woodwork to the steel. Few would survive a crowbar attack.

Jen

I guess that would work up to a point, Jen, although the vulnerability here would be the short screws fixing the handles to the doors. I accept what you're saying about a crowbar attack, but we'd like to make it a bit more difficult to get in than it is at present by ensuring that the doors remain firmly shut to anything other than brute force.

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Photos tell all...

I'm not sure of your meaning, Mike. The boat is, overall, well built, so i'm guessing that the doors were reasonably secure when it was originally fitted out.

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The most secure way is probably to strip off the inner wood panel from the door and weld on some threaded studs to which the new locks will be attached. Then replace the wood panelling. Better than making a hole through the door and fitting a dome head coach bolt. The coach bolts are unsightly and gives a potential water ingress point. It is stronger than short screws in to wood and easier to do than welding to the door metal.

Jen

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I suspect that side hatches are a major security weakness on most boats. We've got 7 off them but I am moderately happy with our security, but as you suggested, do not want to post details. Anything that is fixed to the wooden lining with short woodscrews is going to fail pretty quickly faced with a crowbar or even a bit of screwdriver prising.

Anything effective really has to go through the steel, or be welded to the steel. Going through the steel can potentially look ugly and possibly be undone. Coachbolts are a possibility and some people now sell some rather nice black stainless steel versions.

We live in the age of the battery angle grinder so ultimately anybody can get in if they really want to.

............Dave

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the pictures suggest that the L on the outside screwed into the plate on the inside and this fitted into the space between the two doors.

Not ideal, not good but fairly secure unless someone cuts off the metal protruding bar on the outside then they are in.

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6 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The most secure way is probably to strip off the inner wood panel from the door and weld on some threaded studs to which the new locks will be attached. Then replace the wood panelling. Better than making a hole through the door and fitting a dome head coach bolt. The coach bolts are unsightly and gives a potential water ingress point. It is stronger than short screws in to wood and easier to do than welding to the door metal.

Jen

We don't have a welding kit so that would be an additional (and unwelcome, due to other forthcoming work with the boat) expense, but nevertheless your suggestion seems to be very workable so i'll definitely be bearing it in mind.

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4 minutes ago, matty40s said:

the pictures suggest that the L on the outside screwed into the plate on the inside and this fitted into the space between the two doors.

Not ideal, not good but fairly secure unless someone cuts off the metal protruding bar on the outside then they are in.

This is interesting. As it stands, the bolt fits through the left door and then the hole in the right-hand door, as visible in the second photograph, and we've had to bend the bolt on the left door so that it mates with the hole on the right door as they are closed (as you can see, there's a hexagonal nut on the bolt on the inside of the left door to prevent it simply being removed from the outside. However, i have suspected that the little plate was part of the original securing method since, if i remember it correctly, we found it lying on the floor shortly after we'd forced the door. Your suggestion that it might fit into the space between the doors is not something we've explored. I'm assuming that you mean on the inside of the left door with the L overlap and on the outside of the right door as they mate together, rather than in the small space between the two doors when they are closed? This latter would not work now although the original hole (now filled) though the L in the left door would have allowed a straight bolt (as opposed to our bent bodged one!) to pass through the left door and into the cabin without any direct contact with the right door. I'm not able to explore these suggestions hands-on right now because i'm not currently on the boat.

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I’m not sure you can ever make a boat impregnable, especially if it has bus type windows or wooden doors. There is an argument to suggest that the harder the boat is to break into, the more damage is done when it is broken into. Better to make the boat not worth breaking into by not leaving valuables inside on display, and or being a bit careful where you leave it.

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More secure would be to have a long shafted dome headed bolt (M6 or M8) on the outside and have it pass through a metal bar (tightened by large wing nut Brass tap head style nut) which stretches across the inside of the hatch to the cabin sides either side of the hatch

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34 minutes ago, dmr said:

I suspect that side hatches are a major security weakness on most boats. We've got 7 off them but I am moderately happy with our security, but as you suggested, do not want to post details. Anything that is fixed to the wooden lining with short woodscrews is going to fail pretty quickly faced with a crowbar or even a bit of screwdriver prising.

Anything effective really has to go through the steel, or be welded to the steel. Going through the steel can potentially look ugly and possibly be undone. Coachbolts are a possibility and some people now sell some rather nice black stainless steel versions.

We live in the age of the battery angle grinder so ultimately anybody can get in if they really want to.

............Dave

 

13 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I’m not sure you can ever make a boat impregnable, especially if it has bus type windows or wooden doors. There is an argument to suggest that the harder the boat is to break into, the more damage is done when it is broken into. Better to make the boat not worth breaking into by not leaving valuables inside on display, and or being a bit careful where you leave it.

I echo these sentiments, and yes, if somebody really wants to get in they can simply kick a window through or something, but i guess you have to make some effort to deter them, and if you didn't there would no doubt be a problem when making an insurance claim.

It's possible that some of the products advertised on this page might do the job, but without seeing them first-hand i'm not sure:

https://shop.rivercanalrescue.co.uk/shop/ShowProductMasters.aspx?Id=5105

What's the thinking on the hatch fasteners and toggle fasteners shown on that page? Would either of them offer more security than a couple of bolts into the frame fixed to the door on the left? The trouble i envisage with bolts is that the holes would have to be drilled through the frame at an angle, so limiting the depth of the holes without compromising the integrity of the wood.

Edited by Froggy
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29 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

We live in the age of the battery angle grinder so ultimately anybody can get in if they really want to.

 

 

We also have bricks available for the last 300 years of industrial growth, plenty on canals from failing bridges and locks, so if you have coach windows a far easier target than bothering to charge your angle grinder up and carry it around on the offchance of a dubious bolt head.

 

Nicknorman should be aware that there is a DarkWeb angle grinder group determined to rid the world of superfluous rivets by 2025.

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Depends if you want to be able to lock and unlock the side doors from both inside and outside, or just from one side.

Our side hatches all have flipover lids which trap the top of the doors when shut, so they up don't need any more security. On the cabin side hatches the flipover lids are secured with door bolts bolted to the lid and which shut into holes in the steel door surround. On the engine room hatches the lids again trap the doors shut and there is a staple on one door and a hasp on the lid and the whole thing is padlocked.

Edited by David Mack
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5 minutes ago, matty40s said:

We also have bricks available for the last 300 years of industrial growth, plenty on canals from failing bridges and locks, so if you have coach windows a far easier target than bothering to charge your angle grinder up and carry it around on the offchance of a dubious bolt head.

 

Nicknorman should be aware that there is a DarkWeb angle grinder group determined to rid the world of superfluous rivets by 2025.

:lol:

Just as an aside, we've had no trouble in the five months or so we've so far spent on the cut, but i have heard a few scary stories. I'm assuming that break-ins to boats is a relatively rare event?

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

Depends if you want to be able to lock and unlock the side doors from both inside and outside, or just from one side.

Our side hatches all have flipover lids which trap the top of the doors when shut, so they don't need any more security. On the cabin side hatches the flipover lids are secured with door bolts bolted to the lid and which shut into holes in the steel door surround. On the engine room hatches the lids again trap the doors shut and there is a staple on one door and a hasp on the lid and the whole think is padlocked.

I'm not sure what you mean by flipover lids?

5 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

I haven't got a side hatch.

That surely qualifies as cruelty to swans and other assorted wildfowl! :P

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36 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

I haven't got a side hatch.

 

34 minutes ago, Froggy said:

That surely qualifies as cruelty to swans and other assorted wildfowl! :P

We met a chap at Middlewich a few years ago who swears blind by feeding Canada geese until one sticks it's head through the hatch, then slamming the doors and twisting until it stops flapping.

Apparently the breast and legs are the only bits worth eating, and it tastes a bit like cat ...

 

Edited by TheBiscuits
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1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

We met a chap at Middlewich a few years ago who swears blind by feeding Canada geese until one sticks it's head through the hatch, then slamming the doors and twisting until it stops flapping.

Apparently the breast and legs are the only bits worth eating, and it tastes a bit like cat ...

 

I sure wouldn't want to meet that guy on a dark night along the cut!

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3 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

We met a chap at Middlewich a few years ago who swears blind by feeding Canada geese until one sticks it's head through the hatch, then slamming the doors and twisting until it stops flapping.

Apparently the breast and legs are the only bits worth eating, and it tastes a bit like cat ...

 

:DI think he's pulling Your leg, mate.

:blink:I hope he's pulling your leg!

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7 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

:DI think he's pulling Your leg, mate.

:blink:I hope he's pulling your leg!

Uh, I hope so!.....

1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

I have pictures ... :stop:

 

No, PLEEAAASE, i'm about to turn in and fancy a restful sleep!

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