Aceleron - repurposed lithium batteries for boaters

[Robbo]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Excellent. Rather you than me.

I wouldn't trust a battery monitor either.

Not charging that extra 20% and having an extra battery for the capacity so you only charge to 80% on the small chance that the BMS may fail to me is the waste of money.

[TheBiscuits]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Yes there is. If you aim to charge to 100% and overshoot even slightly, an expensively wrecked battery can easily result according to this chap here IIRC: https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/

This seem a most excellent reason in my book never to charge to 100%

You should be OK with them then Mike!

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, rusty69 said:

They're not accurate on lithiums apparently, so Mikes one might be ok

They will not be accurate on lithiums. No need to use the word apparently. Smartgauges use an algorithm to predict SoC from the voltage. That algorithum will only be valid for data within the range of the data training set. Lithiums have a very different voltage behaviour so there is no way that you can get an accurate prediction without testing hundreds of lithium batteries over a wide range of circumstances that must have been carried out when the smartgauge was 'born' for lead acids. That's modelling for you.

[TheBiscuits]

11 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

They will not be accurate on lithiums. No need to use the word apparently. Smartgauges use an algorithm to predict SoC from the voltage. That algorithum will only be valid for data within the range of the data training set. Lithiums have a very different voltage behaviour so there is no way that you can get an accurate prediction without testing hundreds of lithium batteries over a wide range of circumstances that must have been carried out when the smartgauge was 'born' for lead acids. That's modelling for you.

(My bold) Looking at the discharge curves, I disagree.  The smartgauge can *never* work accurately with a Lithium Ion battery - it will read 100% ish SoC until it drops in minutes (maybe even seconds?) to about 20% SoC.

Amp Hour counters will work much better with Lithium batteries than they ever did with Lead Acids.

[WotEver]

7 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

(My bold) Looking at the discharge curves, I disagree.  The smartgauge can *never* work accurately with a Lithium Ion battery - it will read 100% ish SoC until it drops in minutes (maybe even seconds?) to about 20% SoC.

Amp Hour counters will work much better with Lithium batteries than they ever did with Lead Acids.

That’s absolutely correct. SmartGauge was designed for, and works well with, LA batteries. Exclusively.

They have other products for Lithiums but they’re not aimed at (nor priced for) the boating market. 

[mrsmelly]

So again to update. You buy four sealed cheapo bog standard 110ah batteries fit for around 350 squids and get two years or a little more out of them if used within an easy to understand charging pattern. Or you do and expensive rewire fit a box thats lockable due to cost of batteries spend ONE THOUSAND FOUR HUNDRED  squids to buy 400a/h capacity you then also make sure you dont over charge them dont under charge them etc etc and make sure the weather is never cold cos they dont like it etc etc etc fit an automatic fire extinguishing system in case they burst in to flames and HOPE they last till your old and grey to attempt to prove to yourself it was all worth it. 

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

You buy four sealed cheapo bog standard 110ah batteries fit for around 350 squids and get two years..........

You are paying way too much for your batteries - readily available at under £70 each (inc delivery)

Just a quick example : https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-Volkswagen-T5-110AH-Campervan-Leisure-Battery-12V-110AH-SB-LM110-Deep-Cycle/322577140872?hash=item4b1b188c88:g:nPYAAOSwopRYiiK9

Point 6 is quite relevant !

Features:

• Leisure & Marine Battery
• Dual Purpose (Starting & Auxiliary) Deep Cycle Battery
• Enhanced Starting Performance with High Cranking power
• Perfect for All types of Leisure & Marine Auxiliary Use
• Maintenance Free with Advance Calcium Technology
• Designed for all climates (This battery can withstand severe temperatures)
• Genuine & Top Quality best Battery in its Range
• Heavy Duty Long Life Battery
• 2 Years Warranty against manufacturing faults and defects.
• Comfortable, reinforced carrying handles
• Low self discharge rate giving extended shelf life
• Standard Leisure round terminals (Posts)
• Low Height / Low Profile Battery (L 354mm  x  W 175mm  x  H190mm)

[Detling]

There is no reason for a phones BMS to tell the truth, it shows you whet you want to see, is your phone really at 100% or is it at say 85% and the BMS just tells you it is 100%, we know it has to lie about being empty, 5 % remaining is probably 25% in order to protect the battery.  So you see 100% full and 0% empty and are happy but actually only using 70% of the capacity.

[Johny London]

That's exactly what I mean. As long as you get the number of amps you are quoted, and you know how much charge you have left - who cares what's going on inside as long as it is performing correctly?!

This shouldn't be complicated.

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, Johny London said:

That's exactly what I mean. As long as you get the number of amps you are quoted, and you know how much charge you have left - who cares what's going on inside as long as it is performing correctly?!

This shouldn't be complicated.

Agreed - but if they are quoted as 110Ah batteries and you can only use 50Ah you are not getting what you expect.

As an aside, I charge my phone until my USB charger show 0.001 to 0.000 amps. I then assume I'm at about 100% SoC

[WotEver]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Agreed - but if they are quoted as 110Ah batteries and you can only use 50Ah you are not getting what you expect.

But maybe they’re 160Ah Batteries, labelled as 110Ah because that’s all the BMS permits?  I have no idea if that’s true, I’m just wondering. 

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As an aside, I charge my phone until my USB charger show 0.001 to 0.000 amps. I then assume I'm at about 100% SoC

As above really. All the low current shows you is that the BMS has said “No more!”  It doesn’t tell you anything about how stressed the battery is. 

As an aside, I’m informed that the next iOS update will include “Battery Health”. Once the capacity is below 80% you can partake of Apple’s discounted £25 replacement battery deal (up to Dec this year). 

[Robbo]

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

As an aside, I’m informed that the next iOS update will include “Battery Health”. Once the capacity is below 80% you can partake of Apple’s discounted £25 replacement battery deal (up to Dec this year). 

It’s in the beta already... mine looks like....

 

[WotEver]

12 minutes ago, Robbo said:

It’s in the beta already... 

So my info was right

I don’t prat about with large manufacturers beta testing, so not seen that before. An Apple tech just told me mine was at 88% anyway, so not so bad. 

[Johny London]

Aceleron got back to me with a spec sheet for their "standard" Li-ion drop in replacement. A quick look at the graph reveals that it would only be useful between about 20-70% capacity, so 50ah really. So in that sense at least, (ie 50% of capacity) it is equivalent to a l/a !

Also 10 degrees as a minimum "operating temperature." I guess more details  are needed - especially the price! 

With the warmer weather on the way, it might be a good time to fit lithium in the engine bay for a few months as a trial, before deciding if the performance warrants the hassle of moving the wiring and batteries into say one of the stern cupboards (I have room for two batteries above my calorifier, next to the inverter and so on, for example). Not sure it'll be these though, I like the idea of the LifePo4's.

Acceleron 12V battery specification sheet-3.pdf

[Alan de Enfield]

45 minutes ago, Johny London said:

Aceleron got back to me with a spec sheet for their "standard" Li-ion drop in replacement. A quick look at the graph reveals that it would only be useful between about 20-70% capacity, so 50ah really. So in that sense at least, (ie 50% of capacity) it is equivalent to a l/a !

Also 10 degrees as a minimum "operating temperature." I guess more details  are needed - especially the price! 

With the warmer weather on the way, it might be a good time to fit lithium in the engine bay for a few months as a trial, before deciding if the performance warrants the hassle of moving the wiring and batteries into say one of the stern cupboards (I have room for two batteries above my calorifier, next to the inverter and so on, for example). Not sure it'll be these though, I like the idea of the LifePo4's.

Acceleron 12V battery specification sheet-3.pdf

Thanks for the up-date.

So, basically you need twice as many batteries to get the same battery bank capacity, cannot keep them in the engine 'ole, (water temperature would keep them below 10 degrees) and pay 'X times' FLA battery prices for the privilege of having them.

As they say "I'm out"

[MtB]

Hmmm "Li ion performance at lead acid price" eh?

So have they come up with a price yet? 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Hmmm "Li ion performance at lead acid price" eh?

So have they come up with a price yet? 

 

 

Maybe they writ it rong, & they ment

"Lead acid performance at Li Ion prices"

[Dr Bob]

4 hours ago, Johny London said:

Aceleron got back to me with a spec sheet for their "standard" Li-ion drop in replacement. A quick look at the graph reveals that it would only be useful between about 20-70% capacity, so 50ah really. So in that sense at least, (ie 50% of capacity) it is equivalent to a l/a !

Also 10 degrees as a minimum "operating temperature." I guess more details  are needed - especially the price! 

With the warmer weather on the way, it might be a good time to fit lithium in the engine bay for a few months as a trial, before deciding if the performance warrants the hassle of moving the wiring and batteries into say one of the stern cupboards (I have room for two batteries above my calorifier, next to the inverter and so on, for example). Not sure it'll be these though, I like the idea of the LifePo4's.

Acceleron 12V battery specification sheet-3.pdf

Yes, thanks for the update.

The 10°C limit would be a killer for me. That just seems daft. Li-ions perform down to below 0°C, its charging down there that is the problem. I know they are more efficient the hoter they are but they are still good at 0°C.

Also, not sure about your 20-70% capacity. How are you estimating that? The voltage graph is confusing. I think normal operation between 20-70% is correct but going outside of those limits is not going to wreck the battery as per Lead Acids.......and then we need the price.

 

[mrsmelly]

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Thanks for the up-date.

So, basically you need twice as many batteries to get the same battery bank capacity, cannot keep them in the engine 'ole, (water temperature would keep them below 10 degrees) and pay 'X times' FLA battery prices for the privilege of having them.

As they say "I'm out"

I have never been " In " They are filed in the complete waste of time box together with Composting bogs, bow shovers, Pram hoods, wind gennies and gas free or reverse layout boats 

[Dr Bob]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

 They are filed in the complete waste of time box together with Composting bogs, bow shovers, Pram hoods, wind gennies and gas free or reverse layout boats 

I'd go for a free boat.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

I'd go for a free boat.

 

I can't imagine any boat owned by mrsmelly being free of gas... 

[mrsmelly]

10 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I can't imagine any boat owned by mrsmelly being free of gas... 

[peterboat]

Glad I fitted Lifepo4 batteries in the bathtub I have been using and charging them at 0 degrees at times with no issues clearly their are batteries and batteries

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

Glad I fitted Lifepo4 batteries in the bathtub

Why are you fitting batteries in a bathtub? That sounds shocking!

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

Why are you fitting batteries in a bathtub? That sounds shocking!

It is! but the bathtub is what I call my broads cruiser that is converted to electric, I am thinking of changing its name to it with CRT.............