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Aceleron - repurposed lithium batteries for boaters


Johny London

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6 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

https://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/lithium-marine-batteries.php

I came across this company selling 12V drop in replacement LiFePO4 batteries with all the charge controls built in.

As long as you can get 14.6V into them they will fully charge.  100% DoD over 2000 cycles, expected normal usage over 5000 cycles.

It all sounds too good to be true - until you look at the prices!

The biggest they do is a 300Ahr. Would that replace a 660Ahr lead acid bank? Maybe, just assuming you will work from 10% to 85% DoD. As you say a bit ott in price.

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2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

That is supposed to be handled by the charger - you shouldn't need to physically disconnect each battery to charge it.

I presume you meant ‘battery management system’ and not charger?

Dr Bob’s question was all about the charge sources. 

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9 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

maybe a separate start battery is not needed?

Must admit, last year we didn't have a starter battery, just started off the domestic. In case of totally flat batteries  I figured the sun would come out eventually,and if that failed, Mrs Rusty offered to bump start it.

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1 minute ago, WotEver said:

I presume you meant ‘battery management system’ and not charger?

Dr Bob’s question was all about the charge sources. 

Yeah, lazy language.  Those drop in replacement ones have all the electronics in each battery, so the upstream source (solar, alternator, mains charger etc) doesn't matter as long as you are providing energy to the battery.

 

3 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Must admit, last year we didn't have a starter battery, just started off the domestic. In case of totally flat batteries  I figured the sun would come out eventually,and if that failed, Mrs Rusty offered to bump start it.

"Just keep pulling the boat along with the rope dear, and I'll pop it into gear when we are going fast enough."

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Just now, TheBiscuits said:

Yeah, lazy language.  Those drop in replacement ones have all the electronics in each battery, so the upstream source (solar, alternator, mains charger etc) doesn't matter as long as you are providing energy to the battery.

The big question here that nobody appears to have the answer to is how to protect the alternator diodes when it’s running flat out into the last battery and the BMS switches off. 

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6 minutes ago, WotEver said:

The big question here that nobody appears to have the answer to is how to protect the alternator diodes when it’s running flat out into the last battery and the BMS switches off. 

I assume the integrated BMS fakes a lead acid battery profile towards the end of the charge cycle. 

The site states:

Smart Battery® lithium ion batteries can be recharged with any standard charger, alternator and charge controller designed to charge lead acid, gel or AGM Batteries.  

4 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

....and not a mention of an ecofan.;)

If you pull the boat fast enough does the ecofan spin backwards and generate heat to warm the boat up?

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16 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I suggested she get out and push!

True Story :

Daughter in law is a real 'townie' from Stoke.

My wife has driving horses (horse and carriage) and has driven at County level - we were discussing the possibility of using one of the horses to tow the boat.

DiL asked "wouldn't its hoofs go soft & how would you get it out of the canal in the evening ?"

She couldn't understand the uncontrolled explosions of hilarity.

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

True Story :

Daughter in law is a real 'townie' from Stoke.

My wife has driving horses (horse and carriage) and has driven at County level - we were discussing the possibility of using one of the horses to tow the boat.

DiL asked "wouldn't its hoofs go soft & how would you get it out of the canal in the evening ?"

She couldn't understand the uncontrolled explosions of hilarity.

Priceless. Was it a seahorse?

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46 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

I assume the integrated BMS fakes a lead acid battery profile towards the end of the charge cycle. 

Never assume. I’d bet good money that it does no such thing. 

Edited by WotEver
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2 hours ago, WotEver said:

The big question here that nobody appears to have the answer to is how to protect the alternator diodes when it’s running flat out into the last battery and the BMS switches off. 

I have seen it suggested a big diode and a 1 ohm resistor connected to the starter battery, this will not normally have any effect, as the Lithium charging will take the current from the alternator but when the BMS disconnect,s the diode and resistor prevent any 'spike' at the alternator and the starter battery gets a bit of juice.

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The batteries in the link are "re-purposed", marketing bollux for made from secondhand cells from batteries returned under warranty with some faulty cells. This explains the low price.

My understanding of the Tesla battery shortage is that Tesla were hoping to automate battery assembly, but have failed to do so, and are having to go back to the much slower manual assembly methods.

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Aceleron I think are not using LiFe04 batteries which leads to two issues. one other lithium cells can burn at stupidly high temperatures enough to melt metal. the other is the voltage range of the cells does not allow for a 12 volt equivalent voltage range battery  the cells are 3.6 volt when discharging, 4 cells = 14.4 volts 3 cells= 10.8 volts, not near 12.5 volts and when charging at up to 4.2 volts per cell 4 cell 16.8 volts 3 cell 12.6 volts now that one is OK but when charging stops we get 10.8 volts.

 

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2 hours ago, WotEver said:

Never assume. I’d bet good money that it does no such thing. 

I would be very surprised if these batteries blow the alternator diodes every time they fully charge.

It would seem to defeat the point of drop in replacements for Lead Acid batteries if this happens.

Do you know they have not addressed this or are you making a different set of assumptions?

 

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So to sum up

Need to have a purpose fabricated steel box and automatic fire extinguishing system that's capable of putting such batteries out costing........£££££££

A completely new charging system cost?

Complete rewire?

They are going to cost HOW MUCH!! more than my cheapos? 

It realy aint gonna happen for a while yet is it. I can pull up in umpteen locations in the uk buy a set of cheapos immediately off the shelf for £ 350 that will last me two years.

 

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1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

So to sum up

Need to have a purpose fabricated steel box and automatic fire extinguishing system that's capable of putting such batteries out costing........£££££££

A completely new charging system cost?

Complete rewire?

They are going to cost HOW MUCH!! more than my cheapos? 

It realy aint gonna happen for a while yet is it. I can pull up in umpteen locations in the uk buy a set of cheapos immediately off the shelf for £ 350 that will last me two years.

 

That's why I was looking at the ones that you can just buy and fit, in standard battery cases containing all the magic electronics.

As far as using them goes, they are a normal maintenance free battery, and you don't need to rewire anything or get new chargers.

They sound ideal for boaters - that's probably why they are being sold to the marine market.

 

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34 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

They sound ideal for boaters - that's probably why they are being sold to the marine market.

 

Lets assume they are just plug and play - without any worries of charging or fire or sub zero etc etc

£3000 for a 300Ahr which replaces a 500Ahr lead acid bank so £450 a pop to replace. If lead acids last 2 years as MrSmelly said then the Lithiums have to last 20 years (taking into account the cost of capital - ie up front cost for those not into NPV''s). Their benefit is that you will be able to get your overnight useage back in from 2 hours of engine running.

The big big negative is that battery technology will move forward at a pace and in the next 5 years there should be a cheaper alternative to the £3000 on offer today. Buy lithiums today and you are locked in for 20 years. The summer is no problem for power and if a live aboard is in a marina for most/all winter on shore power then lithiums are not there yet. For an off grid CC'er, then the fast charge in the winter may be the stimulus to splash the cash now.

Lets now assume they are not plug and play....................er, no chance today.

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47 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

They sound ideal for boaters - that's probably why they are being sold to the marine market.

Or they have tried selling them elsewhere and nobody wants iffy, secondhand batteries - "sell 'em to some boaters' they won't know anything about the technicalities of batteries, and if they burst into flames, the water will put the fire out - Win, Win"

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14 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Lets assume they are just plug and play - without any worries of charging or fire or sub zero etc etc

£3000 for a 300Ahr which replaces a 500Ahr lead acid bank so £450 a pop to replace. If lead acids last 2 years as MrSmelly said then the Lithiums have to last 20 years (taking into account the cost of capital - ie up front cost for those not into NPV''s). Their benefit is that you will be able to get your overnight useage back in from 2 hours of engine running.

The big big negative is that battery technology will move forward at a pace and in the next 5 years there should be a cheaper alternative to the £3000 on offer today. Buy lithiums today and you are locked in for 20 years. The summer is no problem for power and if a live aboard is in a marina for most/all winter on shore power then lithiums are not there yet. For an off grid CC'er, then the fast charge in the winter may be the stimulus to splash the cash now.

Lets now assume they are not plug and play....................er, no chance today.

Not to mention the fact that who knows how long yer going to have a particular boat? what if circumstances change and you need to sell six months into yer 3k investment? no one is going to give you a penny more for the boat because its got supposed all singing and dancing batteries. I don't even check batteries when I buy a boat. When I bought this boat I simply replaced the domestic bank immediately after taking possession of the keys as they are usualy shot on purchase and anyway you have no idea what base you are starting from.

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